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The Truth, The Bible and Everything between
Are you seeking truth and practical wisdom from the Bible? Look no further than "The Truth, The Bible and Everything Between" podcast. Join us for in-depth discussions relevant to all Christians and those hungry for the profound insights of the Scriptures. Delve into practical applications of biblical teachings and explore the intersections between faith, life, and everything in between. Tune in to enlightening conversations that bridge the gap between spiritual truths and everyday realities. Embark on a journey of discovery and growth.
The Truth, The Bible and Everything between
Embracing Faith Amidst Hardship
Why does a benevolent God permit suffering and evil? This profound question has puzzled believers and skeptics alike for centuries. In our latest episode, we embark on a thoughtful exploration of this complex issue from a biblical perspective. With insights from renowned theologian Charles Spurgeon, we reflect on the balance between law and grace in Christianity and consider Jesus' suffering as the only truly good person who chose hardship for a higher purpose. Our conversation addresses the origins of evil and suffering, emphasizing the impact of original sin and the devil's ongoing influence, while recognizing God's sovereign justice as a crucial element in understanding life's challenges.
As we navigate through scripture, from Romans to Isaiah, we uncover how faith intertwines with life's trials, portraying suffering not as a punishment but as a divine tool for spiritual growth and maturity. We share personal anecdotes, illustrating how God's purpose can be seen amid adversity, guiding us to trust in His divine plan. This episode encourages listeners to find solace in God's grace and to hold firm in faith, even when faced with life's most daunting questions. By examining the broader narrative of sin, redemption, and God's sovereignty, we invite our audience to consider the higher plan that governs our lives and to embrace the promise of peace through Jesus' sacrifice.
We conclude with a call to compassion and love as powerful responses to suffering. Highlighting the importance of community, we urge listeners to extend kindness and empathy to all, transcending religious differences. By putting aside judgment and focusing on support, we foster a spirit of understanding and solidarity. Reflecting on historical and modern practices of penance, we reaffirm that God's grace cannot be earned through suffering. Instead, we encourage embracing the peace and hope found in knowing that God’s love remains steadfast through every trial. As we wrap up, we express heartfelt gratitude for your continued listening, inviting you to carry these messages of love and support throughout your day.
If you have any thoughts or suggestions that you'd like to share with us, please don't hesitate to reach out to us at thebibleandtheologypodcast@gmail.com. We are always happy to hear from you!
Hello everybody and welcome to yet another episode of the truth, the Bible and everything in between. My name is Michael, today here with you, along with my good friend, daniel Peters. Mr, daniel Peters. So, my friends, we actually took a little bit of a break. I think the last time we uploaded was probably like a month or so ago, but we're back with an amazing another episode, and I think today's episode is going to hit a little bit harder than usual, dan. Yes, but I think it's going to be very good for us to reflect about the things that we're about to talk about and, my friends, we felt very drawn to actually talk about why does God allow bad things to happen and to actually deliver biblical perspective. Yes, dan, don't forget my recap. Oh, yeah, dan's recap. Yeah, sorry, dan. Yes, so before we get into it, dan, can you give us a recap of what we talked about last time?
Speaker 2:now I'm purely doing this just to keep the um the same thing. You know the format, it's tradition. So last time we were talking about the law versus grace, and all I can say is that even anyone who becomes a Christian this may become a problem, or at least something for you to consider. And I think it's very, very interesting that if you actually read the Bible and pay attention, it's not confusing, unless you want to be circumcised. So, yeah, um, anyway, I I just thought you know.
Speaker 1:Then it seemed to work out quite neatly when we sort of did that podcast yeah, look, god's grace will always be there for us, my friends, and we must always remember that through his grace that we actually allow to obtain eternal life. So it's an exciting thing nothing, nothing against you.
Speaker 2:If you're a keen on on circumcision, you know, go for it but that's the thing you know.
Speaker 1:At the end of the day, in reality, there are still people practicing the law today and people are legitimately still doing that. But don't do that because you feel like this, this is, this is something god requires you to do. I understand, maybe it's in your culture and you know, like if, if that's something done I'm only.
Speaker 2:I'm only joking. I I know many people who, in australia, they actually circumcise a lot of young boys, which has nothing to do with the law. Maybe it's just for health benefits?
Speaker 1:Yeah, apparently.
Speaker 2:Sorry, now we're a little bit off the topic, a little bit of a tangent.
Speaker 1:My friends will bring everything back. So why does God allow bad things to happen? We actually have a few sections that we prepared for all of you today. But, dan, before I jump into it, if I ask you this question as a Christian guy who knows the Lord, you know like what would your answer be if someone that maybe is struggling with their faith, if they come to you and say, dan, why does a good God make bad things happen to good people?
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, I would say my number one answer is that you should feel sorry for people.
Speaker 2:I think that there's many, many evil things in the world, unjust things. So I think, if you're going to come from the perspective of being a bit sort of harsh and just you know, making it sort of technical or some lofty sort of principle, I would say in the Bible it says only from God can you get justice. And I think that's in this question, that's one of the primary things which is missing now to say, okay, well, you know there are unfair things happening. It doesn't mean that there's never going to be justice, but obviously, you know, at the time when you encounter it, no one's going to complain for something which has already been made right. So, yeah, I would say that's my sort of first, you know, the first thing I would sort of think about to tell them, you know, about how to answer it without just sort of being blunt and of course, look, it's a compassionate answer and, Dan, you know, like the other day I came across this Instagram reel and I believe sometimes God can also use social media to touch people's hearts.
Speaker 1:And it was Charles Spurgeon, who is very well known in many Christian circles today as a guy of he basically built the foundation for modern theology. But Charles Spurgeon, he said when someone asks him why does a good god let bad things happen to good people, he says this only ever happened once and that person chose it and he obviously talked about he was referencing jesus there. That was his answer. Um, but I think in reality, my friends, it's obviously a little bit more difficult. You know, like if you tell that to someone that's maybe an unbeliever or someone that that's struggling in their faith, they might not appreciate that answer.
Speaker 2:Now you understand.
Speaker 1:You understand why I started with compassion amen that's the thing, and you know, my friends, and this is going to bring us to our first section, the reality of evil and suffering in a fallen world. You know, my friends, we also need to understand that everything bad in this life does not come from God. Everything bad in this life is a product of sin, and I'm going to explain exactly why. So in Genesis 3, verse 16, we read To the woman, he said I will make your pains and childbearing very severe. With painful labor, you will give birth to children. Your desire will be your husband and he will rule over you.
Speaker 1:To Adam, he said Because you listened to your wife and ate the fruit from the tree at which I commanded you, you must not eat from it. Cursed is the ground. Because of you, through painful toil, you will eat food from all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field by the sweat of your brow. You will eat your food until you return to the ground, since it was um, since from it you were taken, from dust you are, and to dust you will return.
Speaker 1:Now, my friends, I just want to give you a little bit of context, because that sounds like a hardcore scripture and it sounds like god just outright, outright cursing people. But before this point, god actually told adam and eve, when they were in the garden you can go read this for yourself in genesis that they are allowed to do pretty much anything except eat from the tree in the middle of the garden, the tree of what was it called the knowledge of good and evil. Okay, and what is the one thing that they actually did? They went to eat from that tree, had to do it, they disobeyed God and, my friends, as a result, there's a lot of other things that came in play here. There was a serpent that also deceived Eve into eating the fruit from that tree, and the moment that happened, sin started becoming part of our lives and because of that sin, we are now all subject to all of the things God spoke about here, the things that were put on Adam and Eve, because we obviously came from Adam and Eve, we are also subject to all of those bad things.
Speaker 1:So, my friends, I want us also just to understand this in the scope of wider Christianity, when people think no, but Mike, but God is still in control of these bad things. He still allows them to happen. But yes, my friends understand, god didn't create these bad things. These bad things were a product of the original sin committed by Adam and Eve. And now, all of the bad things in life today cancer, war, murder, sickness, bad things happening to people are all products of the original sin. If we were still living in the garden, we might not even be here. My friends, I also have news for you you might even be a product of sin yourself, and we we would be stark naked and we would all be stark you know.
Speaker 1:So at the end of the day, there are certain things that we also have to consider. But also we also know that, you know, like, because this was the origin point, it doesn't mean it doesn't mean things have to stay that way. And, look, this might be a reasonable explanation to understand why bad things actually happen to Christians and to good people. But, dan, what is your perspective on that? It's quite a hard pill to swallow sometimes, right?
Speaker 2:Yes, I think that you're definitely going on the right direction to see why evil things happen and we can see that it's very unjust. And we did that ourselves. God didn't come up and say you know, let's kick a hole in things, you know. I would say, other than that, I would say the devil himself is responsible to a large extent, he does work and he is active. Responsible to a large extent. He does work and he is active.
Speaker 2:And if you look at um, the first, you know the, the books of the bible, where jesus was actually at work it it talks about jesus of nazareth, who went about healing all those who were sick and who were oppressed by the devil, so many of the people.
Speaker 2:Even when they had sicknesses, he actually cast out evil spirits that were causing it. So you can see the cause there. And then when Jesus told his disciples how to pray the Lord's Prayer, he prayed to God that he would deliver us from evil and he said we should pray that God's will will be done on earth as it is in heaven. So I think on the sort of contrary side, or you know, when Michael's referencing God in the Garden of Eden, compared with what men did, and you know, with the serpent, which was was the devil, then you can see that there's also god's will and, um, clearly you know what jesus was doing, that he said if you've seen the father, you've seen me, and that wasn't to go around making people sick or, you know, giving them like a tax debt or whatever it was and and that's the thing, my friends.
Speaker 1:I know it might seem unfair, but this is unfortunately the reality of of what's being what actually is happening here. In romans 5 is 12, we read another scripture therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and in this way, death came to all people because all sinned. You know, my friends, it is unfortunately quite a hard pill to swallow, but remember, we need to also keep in mind that God is just, and a lot of people think about God as this all-powerful being, but it's sometimes a little bit cruel, but the fact is, god wasn't cruel in this sense. God wasn't cruel at all. He stated what you were allowed to do and what you were not allowed to do, and Adam and Eve did not obey him, and thus sin started.
Speaker 1:And yes, dan, you mentioned it, the devil definitely had his hand in it. You know, like the serpent that deceived eve, I, I do believe that that played a very big role in eve actually sinning. But at the end of the day, eve still had to make that choice, and each and every one of us, my friends, you know like we also make that choice, but, my friends, we also don't want to just let it be so somber and so depressing you know, but at the end of the day, you know, like Dan mentioned something very important that there is redemption through Jesus.
Speaker 1:You know, jesus came to rectify everything that that man put in action. When Jesus died for our sin, he obviously paid the ultimate price and things started to change for us. Because of his sacrifice, we once again can walk with God when we die. Why? Because the price was paid. Jesus had to sacrifice himself to pay that ransom, if we can call it like that, that ransom that the devil held over people. Because he has the authority on earth now, right now, because Jesus died for our sins, we can actually have everlasting life again. So it's amazing, my friends.
Speaker 1:But look, this is what one explanation of the reality of evil. And the fact that bad things do happen means it does not come from God. It is a product of sin. So remember that the next time when you think oh God, why did you strike me with this sickness? Or why did you let this bad thing happen to that bad person? It's not always from God, my friends. We're going to get into sometimes how things can be from God directly, things that are maybe not as good if people look at it like that.
Speaker 1:But at the end of the day, my friends, we also need to understand that God is not a cruel God. He doesn't want you to suffer. In his eternal plan for us there's peace, joy, love. He wants us to have a relationship with him. He wants us to walk with him like he once did with adam, like he once did with eve. But because of their sin, there's no longer a possibility until jesus came. Now it's once again a possibility. Perfect, dan. Is there any lasting thoughts you want to say before we move into section two?
Speaker 2:um. I would just add to that, um, which is also related to sin and general corruption, is that people, every one of us make mistakes and we sin. Most people tend to think, well, I haven't murdered anyone, they think I'm good. But if you look at it closer and you know like, whatever it is the guy you cut off in traffic and you know he gets miserable, you know that's how things happen. You know it's like the whole. It says in the Bible that the whole world lies in wickedness. And whether it's one dictator in a country who's you know responsible for a war, or you know one silly, selfish person, you know who may be looking back at you in the mirror.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think it's the sort of thing to consider and it does make perfect sense, Exactly.
Speaker 1:Dan, forgive me, sorry, guys, I'm a little bit sick. Section 2, god's sovereignty and purpose in allowing suffering. So, dan, this is also quite a difficult pill to swallow, right, because we also need to understand that we are not God, we do not think like God, we do not see things the way that God sees things. And I actually have a beautiful Bible scripture, and it comes from the Old Testament here, that I would like to share Isaiah 55, verse 8 to 9. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways. My ways, declares the Lord. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. Oh, dan, that that speaks to me.
Speaker 1:Brother, you know, at the end of the day, we also need to understand that God has absolute sovereignty and sometimes it's difficult for us to submit under that. But we also need to understand that God sees the bigger picture. We might look at a small thing in our life that's happening and say, god, why is this terrible thing happening? It's even taking my faith away from you. But remember, god sees the bigger picture and we need to trust that there's always a purpose behind the things that are happening, because God knows better than we do.
Speaker 1:And then, dan, I want to share one more Bible scripture brother Romans 8, verse 28. And we know that in all things, god works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. You know, my friends, no matter what you're going through, you know like in my own life I can definitely testify to this fact there were times where I thought like God, I've served you my whole life. I've tried my best to be close to you, and there were times where I was further away from God, but overall I've tried my best to stay close to God. How can you let this bad thing happen to me? And then you know what's the crazy thing, my friends. A few months later, I would zoom out a little bit from that situation. I would see the bigger picture and I would start to cry in tears and say, lord, now I understand I thought it was different.
Speaker 2:I thought I thought a jolt of light would come down and a few months later michael would be there, minus one arm. No, we pray against that, then you know, I'm just joking. I was you know. No, of course, but but look, michael's michael's saying it, the more intelligent version no, but 100.
Speaker 1:But then that's the thing. You know, like there were a few events that that led up to me coming to hong kong and I remember that time, just before I came to hong kong, I was depressed man. I was still young, I was going through a lot of things at the time and I said I basically sought solace in the things that were not from God and I tried to find my peace and I went through it like a very difficult phase in my life. But now, reflecting, looking back, I'm so happy that happened. You know, like I told my wife the other day, I thank God every day for all the good things that happened to me, but also all the bad things that happened to me, because those bad things brought me to where I am today, and for better or worse.
Speaker 1:My friends, sometimes we can reflect on it. You might be going through a season right now where it's really difficult and you might not understand why you are going through this. At the end of our podcast, I want to share something a little bit personal about what happened to a close friend of ours recently, you know, but at the end of the day, you know, like we don't always understand why these things do happen, but I promise you, my friends, they have a purpose. Everything that's happening to you, whether it's good or bad, has a purpose, and it's still under god's intelligent design, if that makes sense yeah, I was thinking, um, we should.
Speaker 2:You know it's good to consider what god's will is, and we know that it's god's will that everyone should repent. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, that's the answer to the sort of sin and chaos we've been talking about. You cannot go wrong by being humble and saying sorry. It might be counterintuitive, you know, if you're looking at it as a sort of justice scales, but the thing is you're not the one who actually balances those. Anyway. You can't do it. We know it's God's will to repent and that everyone should go to heaven, and we know that in heaven there will be no more weeping. You know, on the other hand, there is, you know there's a hell, and I would say that while you're on earth, no matter what happens, you should try to acquit yourself as best as you can. And it says, I think, in James do not be surprised by the fiery trial which has come to test you, and we know that the trying of our faith worketh patience. Let's see if I get this right. Amen.
Speaker 1:I actually have the scripture later in our podcast, brother Amen.
Speaker 2:Patience, experience and experience, hope and hope maketh not ashamed, but all of Jesus' disciples and Jesus himself. I think for the most part they all died, except for John. Now, that's, I think, quite an interesting reference to what we're talking about.
Speaker 1:And look, friends, you know like, at the end of the day, I guess these things are also used, you know, by God, for a specific reason. I have a final bible scripture here before we move on to our next section Genesis 50, verse 20 you intended to harm me, but God intended it for good, to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. You know, my friends, my friends, at the end of today, you know like we also need to understand that we are part of a bigger kingdom and whether you're saved or not saved yet, you know like, you also form part of that kingdom. God wants you to be part of his kingdom and if we live in his kingdom, there are obviously certain things that certain ways, how the kingdom runs, and we need also need to understand that it's all for his glory, it's not about us. You know like I remember when I was growing up, there was this lady in our church that got cancer and she, I remember one day she actually came to talk about it and she was so upset, she got cancer and she says, god, why me, why me, why me?
Speaker 1:And then she said, all of a sudden, she, she got a revelation, why? And then she started thinking god, why not me? Why not me? What made me so special to be saved from cancer?
Speaker 1:You know like, so you know there are different ways that you can go about your thought process and everything when you're processing bad things happening to you at this very moment. But, my friends, the one thing that we do need to remember that we are still in God's hand. You know my dad always used to tell me growing up. He says, mike, sometimes you can fall over in God's hand, but you can never fall out. And and you know, like I like, I like that idea. It's like sometimes there's something that's going to rock your world, something bad, something that's going to throw your life completely upside down, but you're not going to fall out of God's hand. He's still going to watch over you, he's still going to be there for you. So, my friends, also remember, like, when bad things are happening, it is in God's purpose. We might not understand it at that time, but it's in his intelligent design.
Speaker 2:Well, can I just point out I'm sort of running parallel with what Michael is saying but if you bring it back to Jesus and his disciples, yes, they all died and they were tortured, but they did put more of a dent into evil than anyone else in history and they saw more sick people healed and more people blessed and actually praising God. So yeah, I think you know that's, I'd say that's quite sort of you know in terms of what Michael's saying, supportive, exactly exactly.
Speaker 1:Okay, dan. So that's perfect, brother, we're going to move on to our next section how God uses suffering to grow us spiritually. So we also need to understand that in life, we might face two different types of things. We might face tests and we might face temptation. Okay, tests come from God and the objective of tests is to make us stronger, right, yes? Now, temptation comes from the enemy and the objective is to make us weaker.
Speaker 1:And, my friends, what I want us to also understand today is sometimes God will allow you to go through something to test you, not to make you fail in fact, feel bad about yourself, no but to prepare you for something that's going to come in your future, that you need to be strong for. And, my friends, that revelation is something that came to me probably a few months ago and and it completely changed my life, because it changed the way that I actually looked at bad things happening to me, because sometimes we can ask that question God, is this a test? And if it is a test, give me the strength that I need to endure. And I have a scripture here I want to share with us, dan James 1, verse 2 to 4 consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that testing of your faith produces perseverance, let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. Oh my goodness, this Bible scripture is hardcore, dan.
Speaker 2:I obviously left out a part when I quoted it. No, but, dan, look.
Speaker 1:I'm sure it says something about that experience and hope.
Speaker 1:But look, Dan, this thing carries weight, man, Because it tells us if we go through different trials, if we go through different tests, God's making us stronger and it's helping us get to a point where we might be mature in our faith. It took me close to 30 years to understand, Dan, that you know even bad things, and I always like to think about the disciples. You know, like you mentioned a little bit, like how they were persecuted. You know like how they suffered. God could have at any point stopped their suffering. God could have at any point. You know, like, when Peter was being crucified upside down we know this through other manuscripts, it's not directly found in the Bible but when he was crucified upside down towards the end of his life, you know like God could have saved him in that moment. And I always ask myself the question why didn't God? Because God's plan for Peter at that point was complete. Peter fulfilled what God wanted him to do on earth and this was the final act of his life.
Speaker 2:Well, Jesus told Peter, you know, he said in another time someone will lead you to where you do not want to go. And it says by this Jesus signified the death by which Peter would glorify God. So that actually glorified God. And yeah, that's an interesting thing to see, this sort of the end result, you know, compared to all the evil.
Speaker 1:And look, Dan, it gives us perspective, brother, you know like if we see how God can actually use suffering and use bad circumstance to make us stronger, it also gives us another sense of purpose.
Speaker 2:Don't go around crucifying people outside.
Speaker 1:man, that's not the purpose, of course not, of course not. But look, dan, really like it. It really helps to to let us see things in a different light. Um, I have another bible scripture I would like to share with us. Um, 1 peter, 1, verse 6 to 7 in all this, you greatly rejoice though now little, while you have had to suffer us that all of these things, scripture also comes to show us that all of these things are also done to the glory of God. Then, like you also mentioned, you know like when Peter actually died, you know like, and he was crucified upside down. You know like his story was complete. You know like, and at that point he glorified God for his death. And, my friends, that's also what's happening. Even through bad things, we can also give glory to God I mentioned before. There's something personal I would like to share.
Speaker 1:My wife's best friend recently passed away. She was battling with cancer. She got married probably about a year and a half ago and a few months after she got married she got diagnosed with cancer. Young lady, early 30s and she had a very difficult fight with cancer and eventually she succumbed to it. But throughout her whole journey she never, never, never, never let go of her faith, she kept hold. She kept holding on to the thing that matters. By the end of her faith, she kept holding on to the thing that matters. By the end of her life, she had so much peace in Jesus. And she was in pain. Make no mistake, my friends, she was in pain. She was really struggling, she was suffering, but she had peace because she knew she had salvation. She knew that, she knew Jesus and because of that, my friend, she had peace in her life.
Speaker 1:And look, like I said, sometimes it's a bitter pill to swallow. It gives me a lot of perspective on my own life. I sometimes look at my own life and I think, yes, compared to her life, you know like, wow, her life is over. You know I still have so many good things. Yes, sometimes there might be a few things that are happening that feel a little bit hectic, but I'm still happy. You know, I have a wonderful wife. I still have my health. You know like, I still have the capability to spread the word of God to people. You know. So, at the end of the day, you know like, there are so many things that we can also be thankful for. But my friends just know that God can also use a bad situation to help build your faith. Dan, is there anything you want to say about that brother? I know it's quite a big bomb to drop on people, you know.
Speaker 2:Well, I think at least everyone can sort of appreciate what happens. And you, you have to deal with it. You're not, you're not exempt. No, no one is. So, um, yeah, you know, I think it's very sad and, um, other than that, I think that we really need god with us, um, no matter what, and I think you know, if you look at it, obviously, first of all you, you need to get to heaven. To where?
Speaker 2:God is and things are happy and peaceful and you, you need the Holy Spirit to to help you to deal with it. So, um, yeah, I, I think that that's sort of quite paramount and Jesus did die for that. So I think, um, you know, if we sort of you know, just to make it, what's the word, think of all the things we've said, you can see that there is quite a lot, you know, with all everything that's happening and, yeah, you sort of you have to deal with it. So I think, um, other than that I wouldn't sort of go into my own stories of misery, but yeah, I think I mean, unless you're living under a rock or something, I'm sure that everyone who is listening will know I've had difficult times, of course, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:And look, you know like, and Dan, dan, I know we spoke a lot about jesus already and that should always be our focus. Amen, um. But you know like I I think jesus acts as the ultimate example of purpose tied to suffering. You know like I'm always reminded about what jesus prayed about when he was there in in the same uh was there in the garden of Gethsemane I'm thinking about saying in Afrikaans. He was praying, you know like, and he said Lord, if it's your will, let this cup pass before me. And you know like it was difficult for Jesus to pray. Can you imagine? Because he knew what was about to come and he accepted. He accepted what was about to come when, when the Lord told him okay, look, it's still within his will for Jesus to go through that. And, my friends, can you imagine if you know exactly that you're about to be crucified, that you're about to go through intolerable pain, that you still have to do it? Can you imagine, just knowing that, having that premonition, it must have been crazy, dan, knowing that you're about to experience all this suffering. But Jesus also knew that there was a certain purpose behind it, and I have a beautiful Bible scripture here, and I think it's so beautiful. This comes from the Old Testament but perfectly sums up what Jesus went through. And this just shows you the amazing prophetic words that are in the Bible, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, how they actually complement each other, because here Isaiah is clearly talking about Jesus. I'm going to read it here for us Isaiah 53, verse 3 to 5.
Speaker 1:He was despised and rejected by mankind. A man of suffering and familiar with pain, like one with whom people hide their faces, faces. He was despised and we held him in low esteem. Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering. Yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities. The punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are all healed.
Speaker 1:Man that's heavy, man like I feel even just reading it. Man like it, it it almost feels like a. There's something in my heart. Man like it's, it's, it just comes to show us. You know, like, at the end of the day, jesus went through all of that, my friends for us.
Speaker 1:And you know, like Dan, over the past year I had to delve a little bit deeper into studies and and understanding, you know, like what, what it actually meant for Jesus to be fully God and fully man at the same time. If Jesus wasn't fully God, his sacrifice wouldn't have meant anything. It would have just been a guy dying for for dying, you know. But because jesus was also fully god when he died, the sacrifice was ultimate. The sacrifice was enough to pay our ransom. The sacrifice was enough to actually release us from the sins of the whole world, present, past and future.
Speaker 1:And that, friends, is why we can actually have a relationship with God today, why there's no longer that thing that separates us. But at the end of our lives, even if we had a life full of pain and misery and all those bad things, we can go to be with God where there's no more pain, where there's no more misery, where there's no more fear, no more anything bad, because then we're in His presence. Dan, I feel like you have something to say, brother, putting you on the spot. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I won't crack a joke.
Speaker 2:No worries, brother, I'm not going to do it. I could, but I won't Do it, brother, yes, brother, yes, I was just gonna say suck it up, you sissies out there. Um, look what comes down to it. You know what? What I was gonna say, um, I think you'd you'd be able to appreciate my humor, you know.
Speaker 2:In this sort of context, um, what I was going to say is, um, it's not, it's not a negative point, but there are some things where I've studied and, on the one hand, christians, you know, who are experiencing illness there's a question for some people who say, oh, you know, god gave me this sickness, I deserve to have it, I'm suffering for God.
Speaker 2:Then there's other Christians who, in talking about healing and faith, will sort of punish those Christians and they'll say, oh, that that means that you're getting it wrong, because you know God is sort of here to to give you healing, and so then, in saying that, you're actually, um, disregarding you know God's gift, but, um, I just I don't think it works like that. Do you know what I mean? Because I think, well, first of all, like, if, if you are going to get healing or you are going to get righteousness and justice, we know that comes from Jesus dying, dying from us anyway. So I just like I've experienced it this is more of a technical point, you know michael's sort of telling us the truth, but, um, I've sort of experienced that sort of thing. Like, even when you're talking about jesus, I've heard people who say, when he was on the cross and he said my god, why have you forsaken me? That he was doubting, and I'm thinking like what are you talking about, you numbskulls? Like he was the son of god, dying for you.
Speaker 1:You know that that was when he was like doing the the most miserable thing to pay for your sins, not his and and that's the crazy thing, dan you know like I, I think you know like it's difficult to speculate exactly what jesus felt, you know, like as he was being crucified. You know, like I think you know like it's difficult to speculate exactly what Jesus felt, you know, like as he was being crucified. You know because, remember, there were lots of other things also that he experienced. Over and above physical pain, physical things happening, it's a lot of spiritual things. When Jesus shouted that on the cross, when he said, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? It's just because god is just. Yeah, god had to turn away from his only son because the world's sin was upon him. And, my friends, can you imagine the pain that jesus had to go through experiencing death? Oh my goodness like which.
Speaker 2:It's what, it's what you would actually earn yourself, like, like every one of us, and you wouldn't have a chance, you know, if they put us up on that same cross mate, you know, good luck, you wouldn't be getting back up again, you know, without Jesus dying.
Speaker 1:And then you know, like, in Hebrews 12, verse 2, I'm going to read this for us, and I feel like the answer to all of this is also in this verse. I'm going to read this for us. I feel like the answer to all of this is also in this verse. I'm going to show you why, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, for the joy set before him, he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. You know like, jesus knew that there was a purpose behind his suffering. He knew that he had to do this, he had to die for us so that we can be reconciled with God, and that brought him joy. And it's difficult to sometimes envision that that he was willing to do that for us, dan, even though he'd never sinned himself. So you know like it really just speaks to you know like that there should be purpose of surrounding suffering. You know like, even with christ's death, there was purpose in his suffering.
Speaker 2:Thanks, michael. I didn't want to make it too twisty, but I wanted to tie that in because when we get to this question of why do people suffer, I've heard it answered the adverse sort of element. You know, at least they, they could feel a bit sorry for people instead of like having, you know, this very lofty, you know sort of like standpoint of you know how how it sort of you know works and, yeah, you know, neglecting the actual side of justice. I think um Jesus said, you know that we ought to pray and faint not. And you know he said with the parable of the persistent widow, that God will avenge his elect swiftly. And it says give place to God's anger. For it is written thus saith the Lord vengeance is mine, I will repay. So there is such a thing as vengeance and and justice and righteousness, but that doesn't mean that right at this point we're actually sort of seeing it, you know and look, dan, like I said, man, it's, it's.
Speaker 1:This is sometimes a really a little bit of a hard pull to swallow, because the people are going through difficult things at this very time. My friends, we don't know what you're going through. You know like you might be going through cancer yourself. You might have some disease that is limiting your life in a certain sense. You might have experienced death in your family, or even death of a loved one, like a spouse, or even a child. God forbid, you know. But just take note that there is also encouragement that we can find in the bible for when you are going through difficult things.
Speaker 1:I have two scriptures I want to share with us, dan. In john 16, verse 33, we read this is jesus speaking. I have told you these things so that in me, you may have peace in In this world. You will have trouble, but take heart, I have overcome the world. My friends, always just remember that our time on earth is finite, it is limited. You are here for 70 hours, 80 years, if you're strong, if you're more blessed, 90, 100 years, you know like wow, amazing, yeah we'll pull the plug Once you get to 100, that's it.
Speaker 1:You know, like technology's changing, maybe people can live longer, you know. But at the end of the day, my friend, your time on earth is finite, it's limited. So that means your pain and suffering in this world is also finite and limited, because one day, day when we are reunited with him, there's no more pain, there's no more suffering.
Speaker 2:And I'm not advocating for, for, you know, like obviously longing to die one day, you know, because I know it sounds depressing, because some people have difficult lives I've been thinking about this point because we haven't mentioned such topics as flagellation and you know the sort of the people who who get into punishing themselves or, like I've heard of people who they think that it's like the blessing from god you know to to get sickness definitely not look and, dan, we also need to understand it's not for god's will.
Speaker 1:It was in his perfect design for people to have sicknesses or diseases.
Speaker 2:Can I explain the flagellation stick? So just for those of you who aren't quite as religious as me, the flagellation stick was a stick used by those um early christians you know the monks to beat themselves with. How's that for religious?
Speaker 1:That's quite hectic, dan, but look, that's also the thing. It's people's interpretation of how they see the world as well. I don't fully agree with that, dan. I don't think anybody should ever hurt themselves.
Speaker 2:You know what I would advocate? Flagellation armor. Here we go, man.
Speaker 1:When someone approaches you with the stick, you can put on your like flagellation proof coat but look, thank god, since then, you know like things have developed and we have a much better understanding of the bible today. You know like and look, that's maybe how they interpret it. You know like, and kept themselves from sinning. Well, martin Luther, I think that's.
Speaker 2:Did you hear the story about him? No, he was going up the steps of like I don't know where it was somewhere in Rome, to do penance, and he was aiming to go up on his bare knees to the point where he would make them bleed, and I think that was where he sort of heard God's voice. I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't know the exact details, but yeah, that was. You can look it up anyway anyone who's interested. Wow, man, I'll definitely check out that story, dan. I love Martin.
Speaker 2:Luther reading all about what he did and look, it sounds fine and it sounds very heroic and noble, but as far as I can tell, your blood's worth nothing. Do you know what I mean? Like, if I've got the choice between you dying for me or Jesus dying for me, I'm going to take Jesus, so save yourself the trouble, and you're going to have enough suffering and misery anyway. You know, without looking for it.
Speaker 1:But look, dan, I do think that comes from people, I wouldn't say misinterpreting what they think God requires from them. You know, like, obviously we spoke about this a little bit before you know, like, where a lot of people still think they need to earn God's grace and in their eyes, this is how they earn God's grace. You know, like, by hitting themselves with a stick on the back, because this keeps them from sinning. So they think this is going to make God happy. But remember, god wants us just to have a relationship with him and Jesus, and everything that he's done for us was given to us by grace. Nothing we do will make God love or hate us more, and you know, like, you know what I mean. At the end of the day, it's really like that.
Speaker 2:Then you know god loves us there's grace there's grace I had to bring it up because it seemed relevant to this topic, and so I think I've brought up some of the more twisty sort of ends but that's why it's good that you're here, dan.
Speaker 1:You're like you always think I think of things from a different perspective, brother. So it's good man, I'm sure, dan. You're like you always think of things from a different perspective, brother. So it's good man, I'm sure they.
Speaker 2:Oh, actually no, I was going to say these days they don't, but I Back in maybe the 90s. I don't know if they're still doing this. In the Philippines, they have a ceremony where they actually crucify people. Wow, I didn't know that yeah and that's in modern times, and they're not killing them, but they're nailing them through the hands up to a cross, and I've seen footage of it.
Speaker 1:But to what end? To punish them.
Speaker 2:Um, well, in a very Like I'm going to have to make this a bit abstract to explain it but basically to reenact the sufferings of Jesus and somehow act as if they're what's the word? They're sort of honoring God. Do you know what I mean by this saying look Jesus, like we suffer for you. You know, like this is this is real. I mean, it's a bit hard to explain, but you know, if you, if anyone's ever seen a riot, you know you get a mob, you whip them up. They think something's happening, but then they're not always well advised. So, and that was, um, yeah, again, people can look that up, you know. Look up the martin luther, look up this.
Speaker 1:I'm not making these up? No, of course, but like I said, man, I think it's just the interpretation of what they think they need to do to earn god's grace oh, mate, I suffered by hearing about it.
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, but like man it's, it's hard, you know like and to bring us back. You know, I have a another scripture to just encourage us. And in the midst of our suffering so, like I said, we don't know what your situation is, brother or sister, you know like you might be going through something very hectic at this exact moment, and we can find it here in revelation 21, verse 4 he will wipe every tear from our eyes. There will be no more death or mourning, or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.
Speaker 1:My friends, this is the new heaven that John the Revelator is writing about here, and it's very significant because, at the end of the day, my friends, when we end our journeys, you know like we're going to be in a place where there's no more pain, no more suffering, and we just need to take encouragement in that and know that, as we are going through this, that it does have a purpose. But one day, when we add, when we're with god in heaven, there will be no more pain, there will be no more suffering. So take heart to know whatever you are going through, this too shall pass. So just remember that, my friends yeah, and I would.
Speaker 2:Um, I would also add to that that you know it says run with perseverance, the race set before you. Looking unto Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith. I had to try and keep up with Michael. He's really put in some good verses. I've been sitting here thinking how did he?
Speaker 2:do that, you know like he nailed it, that's like you know, but I had to throw that one in and because we've looked at the other verses to do with perseverance, which are also related to suffering, which are also related to faith, and for us to become whole, you know, to persevere under trials and I think that's another one which sort of relates to this and as you're going through your life, to actually keep, you know, focused on Jesus, to keep focused on heaven, because you know that's where you want to actually go in the long run. And I would say that, if you have whatever your problem is because everyone's got problems, and if you think you don't have any problem may be stupidity you know right, yeah, right, we spoke about that before.
Speaker 2:But um, whatever your problem is, your answer is actually jesus and amen yeah, that that's where I think you should be focused on, and I would also think which relates to some of our other podcasts for you to be walking in the spirit.
Speaker 1:You know, that's something people it's not necessarily occurring to them when you're sort of in the world, and yeah, so, which relates to all of these sufferings, Now, dan, the biggest question as well is what do you actually do when you're in a difficult situation like that, you know, like if you're going through something bad, right, oh man.
Speaker 2:I've got sequences. What?
Speaker 1:are some practical things that we can do, you know like in Swearing number one? Look, I hope not, dan. You know like. Look, obviously there are some outlets of frustration and I completely understand. You know like if you're going through something bad, my dad always teased me like, growing up as a kid I would always yes, man, when I was sick, I would always just shout.
Speaker 2:I'm dying. I'm dying.
Speaker 1:My mother had to come and help me. Listen, I'm joking and to this day he's mocking me about it. I know sometimes, when bad things do happen, our first reaction might be to swear and be upset about it. And look, remember, friends, anger is a human, natural emotion. It's not wrong to feel anger about something, but just be careful how you react.
Speaker 2:Take it as a practical point. I know I'm joking but honestly, in my experience that's probably back in the day that would have been my first reaction. I'm further down the road now. The anger of man does not produce the righteousness that God desires, you know.
Speaker 1:But then that's the thing.
Speaker 1:The reality is exactly. You will feel frustrated, you might go be, you might be going through something that gives you extreme frustration. Now, I also believe that you can always find the answer in the bible. In philippians 4 over 6 to 7, we read do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your request to God, and the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. You know, my friends, this tells us no matter what you're going through, pray, pray. If you're going through something difficult, the only thing that can fix that situation and you know like god might even decide not to take you out of that situation, but to pray will give you something. What will pray I give you, dan, and it says here in the scripture prayer will give you peace, the, the peace of God, which passes all understanding.
Speaker 1:The peace of God that transcends all understanding will be given to you when you pray. Why is that? Why is that Because God understands that, even though these things happen, that sometimes they need to happen for a purpose, that he can give us that peace to set our minds and our hearts at ease, because it's not easy.
Speaker 2:Then Thank you, Michael. That's a very good answer and I like it because we've been doing these podcasts and sometimes I feel like we're trying to sort of figure it out. But it's like a game of pool you know, you hit the balls and then they're going everywhere. You try to keep track of them all and I think that that's a very good answer when we consider this. Question them all, and I think that that's a very good answer when we consider this question.
Speaker 1:Amen. And my friends also take heart, knowing that in Psalm 34, verse 18, we read the Lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. My friends, remember God has compassion for those that are suffering. It's not like God does not see your suffering, my friends. No matter where you are, what you do, what you are going through, god sees your situation and he has compassion towards you. Remember that I, always, when I, when I read the gospels and I read about Jesus, so many times times you would read and Jesus had compassion, and Jesus had compassion, and Jesus had compassion towards a certain person, he would heal them.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of verses that I have used over the years, like the one you just quoted, michael. Actually there's a good one Surely oppression maketh the wise man mad, which is in Proverbs. That's more philosophical, obviously, but David said, I believe, even the unlucky will get lucky with God, and it says after oppression he setteth them on high. So if you read the Bible there is quite a lot to this and I think, when you know I might be joking when I talk about swearing, but honestly, you know, over the years that's something I've learned not to do, but it wasn't something that happened instantly and I'm sure people who have a hard time it does say a precious oppression makes a wise person mad.
Speaker 1:And look, dan, we will always have those situations where you get frustrated in life, man, you know like where bad things happen. But I think at the end of the day we just need to remember that we serve a loving God, we serve a good God, and remember God's heart was reflected in Jesus's actions and it just shows us people sometimes think God of the Old Testament, god of the New Testament, in Jesus' actions and it just shows us People sometimes think God of the Old Testament, god of the New Testament is two different things. It's not my friend, it's God.
Speaker 2:It's still God People think because Old Testament God seemed like he burned people because they didn't listen. I love it, man.
Speaker 1:I've got to share more verses. It's hardcore. There was always fights against other nations and things and people think that God was maybe a little bit different. But in the New Testament we read about Jesus being so compassionate and having love for everybody and even dying for human race. It's still God. So it shows you what God's heart was like and, my friends, this should put everything in perspective for us. Know that even though you go through something bad or something challenging, know that there's purpose behind it and that God can still use that thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've got to say as well. I mean to just go back to the law and grace. All those people who think God was harsh in the Old Testament mate, they were busy going out raping and murdering people and then they complain and say like God's not happy with this. You know, it's um, definitely brought it. You know, none of them were busy like walking around like saints, you know, or even like getting it half right. And we know we can't do that ourselves anyway, which is the point of grace All man has fallen short of the glory of God.
Speaker 1:And look, dan, at the end of the day, man, all we can do is just be thankful for the grace that God has given us and know, my friends, that your suffering your bad situations it's still in God's plan. It's still in God's plan For some reason we don't understand. Remember his will is higher than our will, his plans are higher than our plans. And just remember, they don't always come from God, because I know some people blame God. They think, yes, this person died. How could you do this to me, god? How could you do this to me, god? And even though it is true that the Lord give us and the Lord take us away 100%, you know, like, just understand that these things didn't originate from God.
Speaker 2:God never wanted bad things to happen to people, so I was just gonna say sorry, michael, once you're finished, no then.
Speaker 2:I was about to close, brother, so yes, but it's okay well, I was just gonna say um, because I'm you know from my personal experience which I definitely like, maybe 24 years ago when I became a christian definitely put in a good effort with the swearing. But what I learned in the end because I would always feel bad the next day and I think many of the problems which I faced that upset me they might be on a physical sort of level, but I'm not dealing with the spiritual level, and I can tell you that there was never a time where I got angry at God and said it was his fault that I actually felt better the next day. I'd always feel worse and I'd always end up saying sorry to Jesus and also walking around in fear, thinking oh no just strike it out this time god's had it with me like I.
Speaker 2:I might have had a problem yesterday, but now it's much worse and um, I my wife, uh taught me the verse which says um, in all circumstances and at all times, to give thanks to God, because this is God's will, and I do that. Actually, if I have a problem, I'll tell it to God and I'll say God, listen, you know I'm not happy. This is unfair, it's miserable. I want you to care about it, and because I've come to the conclusion that if god doesn't care about it, I'm up the creek. Do you know what?
Speaker 1:I mean like.
Speaker 2:I've got many, many things that you know have happened that make me miserable, but I want god to actually care about them himself, because my, my own help is useless. Do you know what mean? And it says to cast all your cares upon him, for he careth for you watchfully. And so I would recommend to anyone. Um, two things that stand out is number one go and read the Bible, because if you have faith in God, that's, that's a difference. And we're told that these trials that are to prove our faith, you know, read the Bible and you'll find a lot in there, and it's all relevant to this. And number two, I would recommend that you praise God and you thank him, whether you feel like it or not, because you should do that, and God said to. So just try this out, see if it works, see if you feel better, see if you do get into you know more of a spiritual state.
Speaker 1:you know I mean Dan. Wise words, brother, wise words my friends. With that we're going to conclude our podcast for today. I think it was quite insightful and I liked your analogy, dan, where you were talking about like sometimes we. It's like pool where the answers go all over the place.
Speaker 1:But you know, like, I really think it's very insightful what we spoke about today. You know, like, and look, remember, my friends, we're also not perfect. We're also struggling with our own journeys and things that we're going through, but what we're going to always try to do as best as possible is give you, like, what the Bible says about it, because that's the most important, and also give our two cents about what we've experienced and what we've gone through in our own lives to also add to that testimony. But look, my friends, at the end of the day, you know, like, know that God is in control. That is also the thing that we should always remember, even when you're going through bad things.
Speaker 1:Know that God has a plan, he has a purpose and it is for good. It is for good, it's not something to be bad for your life. You know, like, just remember it's going to be good for his kingdom and God loves you, my friends. So just bear that in mind and know that your suffering is finite. It's gonna not last forever, okay, no matter how bad it is. So, my friends, that is it from us today. Dan, any any last words? Or you fine, um, all sorts of yes, put down those flagellation sticks.
Speaker 2:There we go, and um, yeah, on the other hand, uh, what might be more useful is if you could have some compassion and love for someone else's suffering, amen, because they are going through something difficult and that's what we should do, brothers and sisters.
Speaker 1:We, we should, we should love our fellow that christians and also our non-christians.
Speaker 2:You know, don't, don't give your flagellation stick to someone else amen, amen.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, my friends.
Speaker 2:Goodbye and god bless yes, um, thank you and uh have a nice day. Listen to our podcast. Send money, thank you, thank you.