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The Truth, The Bible and Everything between
Are you seeking truth and practical wisdom from the Bible? Look no further than "The Truth, The Bible and Everything Between" podcast. Join us for in-depth discussions relevant to all Christians and those hungry for the profound insights of the Scriptures. Delve into practical applications of biblical teachings and explore the intersections between faith, life, and everything in between. Tune in to enlightening conversations that bridge the gap between spiritual truths and everyday realities. Embark on a journey of discovery and growth.
The Truth, The Bible and Everything between
Episode 9 - Heresies and the Trinity: How to make sense of it all
What happens when ancient misunderstandings of divine nature shape the beliefs of millions? Join us as we promise to illuminate the shadows cast by early Christian heresies and their enduring impact on theology today. Our discussion sets out to reveal how early Christians grappled with limited theological knowledge, leading to diverse interpretations that the church ultimately rejected.
Journey with us as we dissect the persistent myth of a divergent God across the Old and New Testaments. Discover how early heresies misrepresented this concept and learn why these perspectives are misleading. We underscore the unity of God's nature, using key scriptural references like Matthew 5:17 and 2 Timothy 3:16 to argue for the interconnectedness of both Testaments. With insights into the dual nature of Jesus as both fully God and fully man, we explore how misunderstanding His nature can lead to skewed perceptions of His role in salvation history.
The conversation doesn’t stop at history; it extends into today's theological landscape. Unpack the intricacies of the Trinity and its articulation at the Council of Nicaea, highlighted through a relatable analogy of water's states—ice, liquid, and steam. We also confront modern heresies, examining how contemporary deviations from biblical truths can dilute the essence of Christianity. This episode calls for a careful balance of grace and truth, urging listeners to uphold doctrinal purity while understanding the evolving nature of theological discourse in the modern church.
If you have any thoughts or suggestions that you'd like to share with us, please don't hesitate to reach out to us at thebibleandtheologypodcast@gmail.com. We are always happy to hear from you!
Hello everybody and welcome to yet another episode of the Truth, the Bible and Everything Between. You're here today with me, michael, and Daniel Peters. Daniel Peters, okay, my friends, today we have another special episode. But before we get into it and tell you exactly what we're going to be doing today, dan, how about you give us a recap of what we talked about last time?
Speaker 2:Okay, so last time we talked about pride, which is very important, and I think I should also point out that Michael was sick last time I took the introduction because he was feeling really crook. I think it was good then he was feeling really crook, so, um, anyway, uh, as a result, I missed my recap. So, like one recap short. Um, the main thing I noticed with pride is that it applies to you and I I mean that to everyone. So since doing the podcast on pride, I think I would have felt very frightened to consider myself and think that it was me getting it wrong. So, anyway, that's my recap. That's good.
Speaker 1:Dan, you know we always struggle with pride, you know, like in some way, shape or form, but we just need to have humility in the lord to help us through it. And y'all, my friends, today, like I said, we have a really exciting episode. Today we're going to talk all about heresies. Now, for those of you who don't know what a heresy is, is a belief system that the church outright rejected, something that's not considered true, a belief system that the church outright rejected Something that's not considered true in the eyes of the church and in many eyes of believers, the core of our beliefs. You know, my friends, it's very easy to actually fall into a heresy, because what it basically entails is people trying to figure out how God works.
Speaker 1:Now you're going to see, today we're going to go over a list of heresies that were found, like in ancient Rome, and this is literally just after Jesus. And remember, at the time they didn't have a lot of info to go off of. It's the word of the apostles and a few letters floating around from Paul, and then, while the Gospels were being written, people started to solidify their theology a little bit better, but a lot of people had a little bit of a warped understanding of what it is or how God's entity actually existed, and because of that, heresies were born. Dan, maybe you can give us a little bit of an example of any heresy that you know, or something that you've maybe believed in the past and don't believe anymore.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, well, I think heresies um just sort of add to what michael's saying. The definition I learned is also something which can damn your soul. So, like you know, um, and I guess, if you, if you consider it and you are believing, you know something which is just a complete lie. That's the way it functions. I think heresies are applied to people in that they're thinking all sorts of things and they're getting the result you know it could be you, be you, I mean.
Speaker 2:But yeah, so for myself, um, I would say that since I became a christian, um, I've seen many people, and they're never on the same page, and I've, I've known christians who are doing some very strange things. So I don't I'm not sure if I mentioned it, but I I knew of a cult some friends were in and they had discounted the name of Jesus, but at the same time, they had a strong belief that they were praying in the Holy Spirit and they did some weird stuff. So I'd say, for me, probably one of the number one things that I look for is do people actually recognize that Jesus is the Son of God, and that Jesus is the Son of God and that he's the truth?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the thing, Dan. And look, you used some terminology there. It's like the soul can be damned. You know, I think it's a very Roman Catholic way of looking at it, you know? Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2:But they probably played too many video games.
Speaker 1:But that's also the thing you know like at the end of the day, friends, you know like we also need to understand. You know like when we start our road of Christ, we might come across information and things like that and we might understand it in a certain way, but as long as your core principles remain the same, you know like I'm always of the opinion you're like it doesn't matter what denomination you're from or anything like that. Everybody's theology will look a little bit different and people believe certain things, but there are things we should all believe as Christians. You know like we are called Christians because we believe in the redemptive and graceful power of Christ, who died on the cross for our sins, and only through Jesus we have salvation. All of these other things, you know like it, although it's important, you know like it is secondary to the fact that it's Jesus that died for our sins and only through him we can have eternal life. Everything else comes second to that fact.
Speaker 1:And look, today we're going to look at some heresies from long time ago and some people still believe in it, you know. But the thing is, the idea with this, my friends, is to help you gain a better understanding of what people believed to help form your own belief system, and we're going to look at this from a biblical point of view. We have a bunch of heresies here and we have a bunch of bible scriptures that combat these heresies, and at the very end of today's podcast, we actually want to try and articulate the Trinity, which even in our human understanding we might not be able to do at all, because we are talking about God. After all, my friends, we can only understand God in a very limited sense, but we gonna try our absolute best today, right, Dan?
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, so all you heretics out there, beware.
Speaker 1:So, dan, the first one I want to talk about is Gnosticism. Yes, man, maybe you can you get help me with the pronunciation.
Speaker 2:We've been having fun, so Gnosticism, there we go. Gnosticism, you, man. Maybe you can help me with the pronunciation. We've been having fun, so Gnosticism there we go.
Speaker 1:Gnosticism, you spell it with a G and an N Gnosticism, gnosticism there we go. So this heresy actually started in the first century AD and, my friends, I want you to understand, during that time, remember, a lot of the gospels were being written just a few years before and there was not a lot of information out there. So some people came across some of Paul's letters and they took that as belief. You know like, some people had access to some of the gospels, but it wasn't as widespread as today. Remember, today we have a full Bible. Everything in the bible is considered canon. It's very important for us to know as christians and believers in god.
Speaker 1:But remember, back then, because of their limited information, they had to make limited assumptions as well. You know like, and basically this heresy, nostalism, was in the first century ad and it spread primarily through egypt and syria and it also had a significant influence in the first century AD and it spread primarily through Egypt and Syria, and it also had a significant influence in the second century. So basically, what they believed is they had a dualistic worldview, meaning viewing the material world as evil and the spiritual world as good. So far it doesn't sound too bad, right, dan? Now they believed that salvation came through secret knowledge gnosis, this is the word that they use and the night that Christ became truly human, arguing, he only appeared to be human. Wow, dan, what is the problem with that?
Speaker 2:Well, I think I've heard of different sort of beliefs that do sort of elevate knowledge, and well, I think you know. I should probably quote a few verses. Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except by me. Yes, for there is no other name under heaven by which men may be saved. Amen, whosoever calleth on the name. Why God sent Jesus to die for us and chose to do that was so that he could put to naught the wisdom of men, so that no flesh would glory in his presence. Amen.
Speaker 2:Now, if we are men on earth and we are thinking well, it comes down to ourselves being clever, you know, and gaining this secret knowledge, bearing in mind that these guys may have been sincere, you know, and they want to know the truth, but to sort of elevate knowledge in that way, you're really getting it sincere, you know, and they want to know the truth, but to sort of elevate knowledge in that way, you're really getting it backwards, you know, because God is the one who created us. Yeah, it's um.
Speaker 1:And this is the thing, dan. When people hear about heresies they think, oh, that's what people believed a long time ago. That doesn't exist at all anymore. But can I tell you, nostradamus is so rooted in our culture today and it's disguised as the New Age movement because some New Age movements? They literally emphasize hidden knowledge or enlightenment over traditional doctrines. They literally say it's like if you're in tune with your spiritual self, you'll be elevated to a place where you will know more than everybody around you because you have peace and your chakras or whatever are all aligned and all that nonsense. And basically they also want to detach themselves from the material world. One thing that they did have right is like, yeah, we are living in this world, but we are not of this world. That's one thing I can give noxious points on. The material world should not be the most important thing in your life. It should be the spiritual world. But their view on it was a little bit warped, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:And Dan, you gave us a few fantastic Bible scriptures. I have another few for us over here. John 1, verse 14, says the word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only son who came from the father, full of grace and truth. Okay, and then we have another two here.
Speaker 1:The one, john 4, verse 2 to 3, every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. You know like their biggest thing as well is they looked at Jesus not being fully, you know, divine, and that is obviously a big issue. Now, colossians 2, verse 8, says see that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces. This is it, summed up of the world rather than on Christ and, my friends, that speaks for itself. You know, I hope you're not agnostic. It almost sounds like agnostic, it's a little bit different. But yeah, this is definitely not the way to go. It's considered a heresy and you should definitely try to steer clear from it.
Speaker 2:Okay, Can I just sort of say that a lot of these, you know, call it a heresy or doubt or whatever it is. They can actually have many forms and even if you were a here we go a Gnostic A.
Speaker 1:Gnostic.
Speaker 2:If you were a proper with all the Gnosis and the Gnossing, even if you were one of those in your own little sort of sect or whatever. There's probably 10 different sub varieties and for for the new age I was going to mention satanism they have a big emphasis on hidden knowledge. You know and understanding mysterious secrets, and then you, you are superior to other people, you know, and um, and you gain the favor of Satan. Big issue, obviously that's not what we're aiming for of course, no, fantastic Dan.
Speaker 1:So the next one we're going to talk about is Marcionism Okay, yes, man, I'm butchering these. Marcionism. So Marcionism was founded in 144 AD by Markia of the Sinope in Rome. So his teachings spread throughout Asia Minor after he was excommunicated. My friends, asia Minor is not to be confused with Asia. It's a different region.
Speaker 1:Back then things were a little bit different and the thing is, the church eventually found that this guy was, I don't know, not doing the right thing, and that's why they excommunicated him. They basically rejected him from the church and did not want him to talk to anybody in that setting. Basically, what this guy believed is he believed that the God of the Old Testament was different from the God of the New Testament, rejecting the Old Testament and using only parts of Paul's letters and Luke's gospel. Now, dan, I can understand why some people might think that this is relevant.
Speaker 1:You know, even as us, as Christians, I've had people come up to me and it's like hey, mike, you know? Like why does it seem that God in the Old Testament is so different to Jesus? Because God in the Old Testament sometimes seems a little bit wrathful and there's lots of war and he always seems like he's a little bit angry at Israel and New Testament. Jesus is all about love. You know, like how do we reconcile this? And this is basically where this whole belief system came from. But, dan, can you maybe tell us why is that not the right way of thinking?
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, you do notice, with all of these cults and heresies, that there may be an element of truth there.
Speaker 1:A little bit yeah.
Speaker 2:Who were sincere, but they became deceived or misled. So I know there's a verse that says see to it that no one takes you captive. It talks about you know, the different winds of doctrine and how you shouldn't be swayed one way or the other. I forget exactly where it is, but you know anyone can look that up. So yeah, sorry, michael.
Speaker 1:No, no, it's 100%.
Speaker 2:Can you just repeat the question to me?
Speaker 1:No, sir. Why do you think it's not okay if we believe that God of the Old Testament and New Testament is different?
Speaker 2:Sorry, mate I was so busy trying to remember where that verse was from. I forgot where it started. So this is about humility, as well, just remember that.
Speaker 2:Don't forget the previous podcast, amen. So yeah, I think so. To get back to that, when you have someone who's sort of looking at the Old Testament and the New Testament, you have to see that they go together and many of the prophecies in the Old Testament actually refer to Jesus. God has been the same God all along and it says that the law of Moses was given so that we could actually see that we needed a saviour, so that sin could be revealed as being sinful and men could see that it didn't matter what they tried to do, they couldn't actually, they couldn't make the grade at all, and that's why we need Jesus. So you can't actually separate Jesus from the Old Testament and God is still the same God. He's still going to judge the earth and, as far as I know, it's going to be destroyed by fire. The devil and his angels are going to be chained up.
Speaker 2:They're headed for the bottomless pit. It's not actually. You know, jesus loved the world. God loved the world from the beginning. It's the same God who sent the flesh. He's always hated evil, so yeah.
Speaker 1:No, perfect. That is 100% spot on, dan. And you know like, if we look at this in the modern, let's say, the modern equivalent of this heresy is a lot of Christians, a lot of Christians, think that, you know, because we're Christians, the law, the Old Testament, is not relevant at all. But my friends, it is very relevant. You know, like Dan also mentioned, it's almost having a whole view of God. You know like we need to try to understand what God looks like in a holistic sense. That means Old Testament and New Testament.
Speaker 1:I have a few scriptures to actually back that up. Let's see here Matthew 5, verse 17. And this is so significant. This is what Jesus said Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. This is the words of Jesus, my friend. So what does that tell us? The law is still relevant. Obviously, we don't have to follow it exactly, like people would say, jewish culture. You know like you can still eat your crab and your shellfish and whatever, and you can maybe eat some animals with hooves, you know, but it's not just all about food. But at the end of the day, you know like the law, is still very much relevant. And, my friends, you see here 2 Timothy 3, verse 16. And this it's hitting the nail on the head. 2 Timothy 3, verse 16 says All Scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.
Speaker 2:It doesn't say yeah, I'll ask part of that verse. I don't know if you've got it. It says that the servant of God should be fully equipped for every good work. I think that's it. I'm just saying because a lot of people overlook that. It refers to every Christian. You'd be fully equipped. It's like, oh, just disrupt this thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the thing, a hundred percent, and that's the thing. It says all Scripture. What is Scripture, my friends? It's things that are inspired by God. What you can read in your Bible today, everything is relevant. John 10, verse 30, my friend says this is Jesus talking, I am the father of one, and that that puts it to rest. There's no two gods. It's not Old Testament God and New Testament God. It seems like that sometimes if we read the Bible, but it's definitely not the case. God, the Father, god the Son, are both one. Okay, perfect, dan, that was really good.
Speaker 2:If we went through, we would find dozens and dozens of references to this and references to Jesus in the Old Testament. Yes, definitely.
Speaker 1:There's always a line that you can pull through the entirety of the Bible.
Speaker 2:You know people. They think, oh well, jesus is nice, and I've heard them say the Old Testament's not relevant. We have grace. Remember Ananias and Sapphira? They were Christians and you know that was so. People would actually fear God and fear the Holy Spirit. And you can't just lie to the Holy Spirit. It's not like you know, it's not a casual thing. There's another verse which talks about how the Israelites were destroyed, even though that they had, you know, followed God and they were afterwards destroyed. And it says that Jesus was the one who destroyed them. And we know that Jesus was the word, became flesh.
Speaker 1:So Jesus, that's actually one of our Bible scriptures I'm going to bring up a little bit later, in John 1. Oh, wonderful. So then let's move on to our next one Arianism. Arianism, so this began in Alexandria, egypt, around 318. Okay, so now a few years have passed. It's after.
Speaker 1:You know, like everything that jesus did, the apostles letters are all over the place. You know like some people have access to it. Remember, during that time they were also persecuted, so many of the manuscripts got lost or weren't hiding. But now, at this point in time, a lot of things actually came to light. So they had a little bit of a better understanding. But yet some people formed their own theology. Now, okay, so let's read what that's actually about. So this spread through the eastern roman empire. And then this is actually named after arias, a guy from alexandria. I'm not 100 sure about his role in the church, but yeah, let's see. What did they believe? So Arius taught that Jesus was a created being and not co-eternal with God, the Father, claiming there was a time when the Son was not Okay. So what about the modern equivalent? So there are actually lots of groups that actually believe this. Jehovah Witnesses, you know, those guys knock on your door. They have lots of fervor in their faith, which is wonderful and admirable. Romans, they've heard this stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly exactly. And Unitarians as well. They hold similar beliefs, feeling that Jesus is a created being rather than being fully divine. Now the Bible is actually full of scriptures against this and, dan, you actually mentioned this just before. John 1, verse 1, in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God Whoa. That just hits it on the head. That tells us, you know, like Jesus was with God from the beginning. And then John 10, verse 30, says I and the Father are one. I already put that in another one, but you'll see a lot of the biblical evidence that we use.
Speaker 1:It's quite easy to discredit these belief systems. And look, it's just wonderful that we actually have that today, where we have a whole wealth of resources to actually reference In Colossians 1, verse 16 to 17, for in him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things and in him all things hold together. Okay, so this, this, this is this is him talking about Jesus here. You know like God and Jesus are one. You cannot look at these things as God having more authority than Jesus. You know like, when we look at the biblical sense of things, dan, we fully understand that Jesus came from God, right, yeah, but in their divinity they are completely equal. It's not like Jesus holds less authority than God.
Speaker 2:Well, it says, after he died, that God, you know, set him at the right hand of his throne, and it says that you know all things being unto him, whether thrones or principalities or angels, exactly. And that's you know, it says, because of his sacrifice, that God gave him a name which was above every name, above every name. I mean, it's like there's just so many ways that you can't sort of split it up, you know.
Speaker 1:And I think that's also. If you think about it in that sense, you know like, you will also think that jesus's sacrifice did not actually mean that much. Then, if he was just simply a created being like every, each and every one of us, then it's a very different story, you know like. But we're going to talk about all of that when we actually talk about the trinity in itself, because, you'll see, the trinity in itself it disqualifies all of these heresies all together. So the next one is dossiatism. I hope I'm pronouncing that right?
Speaker 2:I certainly hope so, To my working knowledge.
Speaker 1:A dossier is an Indian food which is very delicious, it's a little bit different. D-o-c-e-t-i-s-m Dan dossiatism. Okay, there we go. Date and location, let's see. So this emerged in the late first to early second century in Asia Minor, within Christian communities influenced by Greek philosophy. So you see, this is where cultural things start coming in. You know, like the Greeks, they were very good with their, their ways of thinking about life, but now it started to clash with Christianity. So let's quickly see what they believed. They believed that they actually denied Jesus's humanity, claiming he only appeared to be human and to suffer. They believed that God would not lower himself by truly becoming human, lower himself by truly becoming human. So they just believed that Jesus represented himself as a human, but he was the whole time just fully divine. Now, that does not sound too bad from the brink of it, because they're saying that God Jesus was God. Yes, but why is that a problem there?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, there's a verse which says I'm sorry, like I'm doing really badly with my verses and Michael's you know he's going for the Olympics today but I think basically it says that nobody should preach a Jesus other than the one which Paul had preached to them. And so you're trying to split Jesus up into different Jesuses. You've got the wrong Jesus and it's not Jesus anymore. And you know, I think that in doing that they're essentially like to me, it's the work of the devil, you know, because basically what you're going to have is not Jesus and it's going to function differently and people are going to be deceived. So, whether you had it say from the, I guess the Greeks were quite intellectual and so if they wanted to look at it from that sort of perspective, the end result would not be Jesus and he couldn't save you, you know.
Speaker 1:That's the thing, Dan, because the thing is, if we take away from Jesus' humanity and we only see him as God, then what does his sacrifice really mean? Because you understand, we're going to get to all of this in the Trinity, but it has extreme significance.
Speaker 2:Think of the blood of Jesus From this point of view. That's not real blood.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly. And then what about the modern equivalent? So, dan, there aren't really any groups that follow this way of thinking, say per se today, you know, like christianity groups I'm not talking about.
Speaker 2:I have a track at it okay, maybe, um, I I would just observe that I'm told, maybe, yeah, you know michael's looking at this very sort of accurately in terms of, like, how heresies began and you know what, what you would sort of think about how they happen. But I would say that these things, they're just many, many different forms of them and, um, you know, like michael was mentioning the new age, if I look at the new age, I'm very familiar because I grew up with hippies, you know, know.
Speaker 1:I know it backwards.
Speaker 2:Each hippie's got their own little subdivision of the new age where they believe in crystals, or some of them believe in essentially witchcraft, and yeah, you can sort of if I looked at it from that perspective just on even in the church. Okay, so, let's make this functional. Okay, let's just put us right where we are now in the church. Okay, so, let's make this functional. Okay, let's just put us right where we are now. In the church, there are people who have very strange views of Jesus, and I would say right down to people who I would say, in my opinion, they're not true Christians and they think Jesus was just a good guy, or he was just a prophet, you know, like he set a good example, but that's fine. Like I've got a bit of sin here, you know, so that's no problem. Like Jesus was good and I follow him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but now they say that Jesus was only God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm just putting a slant on it. Do you know what I mean? So when we're considering, in the modern world, where would we be at?
Speaker 1:Look in the modern world. Where would we be at? Look in the modern world. You actually touched on a few very important points there. In the modern world, although there's maybe, say, not a specific group, some New Age groups maybe, but a lot of modern day theologians actually believe this in the sense of where they overemphasize Jesus' divinity and I know from the get-go that might not sound bad, dan, but the problem is we need to also understand that Jesus was both fully God and fully man, and we're going to get to that when we justify the Trinity.
Speaker 2:It says that he came in the flesh so he could condemn sin in the flesh. Amen. He suffered as we could suffer. Exactly so that he would you know what would it say so he could be the perfect high priest. Exactly so that he would you know what would it say, so he could be the perfect high priest, you know.
Speaker 1:So I actually view perfect scriptures. That's going to match up with that. Then, 1 Timothy, 2, verse 5, says For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus. Okay, hebrews 2, verse 14 says Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him. Who holds power of death? That is the devil. And in Philippians 2, verse 7 to 8, he made himself nothing. By taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness and being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. You know like, then, a lot of this just comes to show and substantiate. You know like, the jesus was indeed fully man as well. And you know like when we do talk about the Trinity, we'll definitely touch on that. And then the next one, it's another. It's another tongue twister pelagianism can.
Speaker 2:I just just just to drive this home. Are we being clear enough at this stage? Like there's still people out there who are saying, oh, but what if Jesus rode on a bicycle? You know know, like, can man and God, like you know, do their legs pump the same way? Like, are we just getting this straight enough?
Speaker 1:We will, dan. You'll see, before the end of this podcast, you'll see, it will be clearly defined, you know, because the whole objective with this is not to create any confusion, but to say what the Bible says and then what the general understanding is.
Speaker 2:I just hope everyone out there listening can sort of hear these verses. So if there's anyone who's even halfway thinking was Jesus, god, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay. So the next one Pelagianism. Founded in Rome around 405 AD by Pelagius, a British monk, it gained followers in North Africa and parts of Italy. Founded in Rome around 405 AD by Pelagius, a British monk Okay, it gained followers in North Africa and parts of Italy. So what did they believe? Pelagianism rejected the concept of original sin, teaching that humans could earn salvation without divine grace. So that means just by works. So, dan, I know in the past we've talked a little bit.
Speaker 1:I can see your face, man, I'm just kidding. But look, that's the thing. There are still today Christians that believe that you can earn God's grace by yourself. And what is the modern equivalent? Self-help or the prosperity gospel teachings A hundred percent. You know, like, where you've been given authority. We know that the truth is, we've been given authority through who? Through Jesus Exactly. That's the only way we have authority. Without Jesus, we have zero authority whatsoever and man is just man without God.
Speaker 2:And can I just say because I've heard Christians who sort of put it to us that we have all the authority and that Jesus doesn't have authority, now he's given it to us. Well, it says more than once the Lord has spoken, that power or strength belongs to the Lord, as I mentioned before. It said, like all authority under heaven and earth, like the keys to hell and everything, like with Jesus it says there's nothing which is not under him. So if Jesus has given us authority, like as Michael's saying, that's actually Jesus has given us authority. It's not like we've taken it from him and he doesn't have any.
Speaker 1:But that's the thing, dan. Like whenever we pray, we say in Jesus' name, because we know that's the only name which holds power, and the enemy also knows that. Let's quickly see. So, dan, ephesians 2, verse 8 to 9 says For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith, and that is not from yourself. It is a gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. There we go, polygonism, there we go. One scripture.
Speaker 2:Can I just say like in the modern world I know people who think this way and they say, oh, I'm not too bad. You know, like I'm sure God is a decent guy. And when I get there he'll say like I'm sure God is a decent guy, and when I get there he'll say that I'm okay. And these polygynases like if did I say that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you said better than.
Speaker 2:I did.
Speaker 1:I don't know if that was the polygamy. Polygamy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, polygamy.
Speaker 1:Polygamy.
Speaker 2:These fellows. Okay, if you wanted to come down to your own righteousness, what the Bible says is that our righteousness is as filthy rags and that's you know. Like there's just no way that you would want it to be down to your own performance.
Speaker 1:That's much more stress, man.
Speaker 2:Can you imagine?
Speaker 1:Yes, man. And then, as for the original sin concept, remember, they believed that there's no original sin.
Speaker 1:So the fall of Adam or the fall of man didn't have any effect on when we're born. So Romans 3, verse 23, says For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. My friends, you are born into sin. It's only through Jesus that you can find redemption. There's nothing you can do that's going to bring yourself redemption 100%. Psalm 51, verse 5, says surely, I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. We are all born into sin, dan. But today we can be righteous not through our own works, not for anything we did or going to do, only for the work of Jesus and everything that he did for us on the cross. It's only through his death and resurrection. And then, dan, as we can see, the next one we have is Nestorism. I'm 100% sure I pronounced that right. Okay, nestor, that's the guy. Okay, nestor, that's the guy. Okay, so this started developed around 428 AD in Constantinople. Okay, so Constantinople Used to be Istanbul, exactly, but the thing is well, yeah.
Speaker 2:It is Istanbul now Exactly.
Speaker 1:Exactly. But Constantinople was pretty much the center of the world back then. You know like it was such a mixed match of cultures from all over the world. It was East meets West, meets North meets South, all in one place, and it was such a place where lots of ideas and things sprouted forth from. It was led by Nestorius, okay, the Archbishop of Constantinople. It spread to the Middle East, persia and Asia. So it's not Asia Minor, this is legit Asia, like in China, all of those places, okay. So Nestorius taught that Christ existed as two separate persons, one divine and one human, rather than as a single person who was fully divine and fully human. Now then, from the get-go, that does not sound too bad, you know like. Why do you think that's an issue? Why do you think that's an issue?
Speaker 2:First of all, he came from Turkey and he was a turkey. Sorry, Look, I think, like it seems to me that, with a lot of these heresies revolving around the nature of you know Jesus, that they're trying to sort of conform things to a way that human minds will appreciate, rather than doing it the other way around. And when you have Jesus as being human and God and you've split him up into two persons, you're already calling him a liar. Because Jesus, you know he said that he came. You know it says that we have to believe that he came in the flesh. And now that Jesus has sort of been resurrected and he's in heaven, like the thing is, jesus is God, like when he appeared to Thomas, he was in the flesh because Thomas could actually touch the nail prints in his hands and his side and but at the same time, jesus is also God. So it says, you know, the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit?
Speaker 1:of the Lord is, there is freedom, and it's not two separate entities exactly. And in the modern equivalent, some fringe theologies actually separate the divine and human aspects of Jesus and that may echo Nestorism, you know, like where they do believe that I want to say they put more emphasis on one or the other, but they clearly distinguish the two, which we know that the truth is it's Jesus was one entity, but whose nature was fully divine and fully human at the same time, existing, coexisting in one body. Let's quickly see here, dan Colossians, 2, verse 9, for in Christ all the fullness, fullness of the deity, lives in bodily form. One verse. There we go Easy. John, 1, verse 14. The word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. Hebrews, 1, verse 3. The sun is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
Speaker 2:I hope people are getting this. I hope these are tried at home, you know so yeah, very clear.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then monotheism Okay, and that began in around 451 AD in Alexandria, egypt. Seems like quite a lot of things happened there Go visit there one day and spread throughout the Eastern Roman Empire. Okay, it developed as a reaction to Nestorism Remember Nestorism, where they actually divined, where they tried to separate Jesus's divine nature and his human nature. So this was the response to it. So monotheism held that Jesus had only one nature, divine, rejecting that he was fully divine and fully human. So this is quite similar to what we learned about. Let me see which one was that, dan? You see, now I have to go down to that. If we're telling people, we ought to know.
Speaker 2:Exactly which one? Dan so this is Jesus was not human. You see, we also have to pay attention. Dan, so this is Jesus was not human.
Speaker 1:Oh, you see, we also have to pay attention. Gnosticism was a mysterious knowledge.
Speaker 1:Arianism, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, exactly, okay, okay, that was quite similar, okay. Arianism, okay. So Monotheism held that Jesus had only one. No, no, no. Dosiatism. Remember when they believed that Jesus was just fully God? Okay, rejecting his fully divine and fully human nature. Some rare groups may downplay Jesus' humanity and emphasize his divinity exclusively. Remember that was that culture where they were influenced by the Greek culture. You know like when that happened? It's basically they take away from Jesus' human side and you'll see, the scriptures are also quite similar in nature that we're going to use 1 John 4, verse 2, every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.
Speaker 1:Hebrews 4, verse 15,. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to emphasize with your weakness, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are. Yet he did not sin. So, dan, this also comes back to it. Jesus was fully man as well as fully God. So what does that mean? He still experienced temptation, just as me and you do. You know, like Jesus was still tempted with things like hunger, thirst. We don't always like to think about it, but Jesus might have even been tempted with things like lust. But what did Jesus not do? The thing he never, never, never did was sin, and that's what set him apart.
Speaker 2:That's the whole point and that's what people are missing, because it can't actually function in any other way. And I would say that for all our podcasts that we've done, if you point that out, it actually makes sense. You know, when we've had things like, well, is there such a thing as sin? You can see that when you have Jesus in that position, you can actually see, you know, you can understand it.
Speaker 1:Exactly. And then, dan, one final Bible scripture here Philippians 2, verse 6 to 8, who, being in the very nature of God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage. Rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant being made in human likeness. It's also one that we brought up before. You know, like Dan, I think this gives us the perfect leeway to go into what the Trinity actually is. We talked about Jesus' nature a little bit. Now what is the Trinity? Maybe you are a new Christian and you've never heard about the concept of the Trinity before. You can probably figure out. Trinity means something like three. What exactly do you think that entails, dan, before we go into the nitty-gritty and the Bible scriptures relating to it and try to explain it in our limited understanding of the Word and what we can conceive about God, what do you think Trinity actually is?
Speaker 2:Well, michael, I would sort of use what we've said so far to respond to this, because God is God, you know. Now, if we're humans down here, we were created by Him and the whole universe was so. You're not really in the position to be. What's the word like? Kicking up a stink and saying, oh, you know, it's not this way, it's not that way, you know it's. I mean, I would say first of all that you know, we know that God is love and we know that he created all the universe and everything in it. That's us, and that it's our duty to actually serve him. And from that perspective, then, we also know that Jesus, after he went to heaven, left the Holy Spirit, which is the spirit of truth.
Speaker 2:Now, when we think of all of these heresies, the spirit of truth is contrary to that and, as you said, any spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, that's the spirit which is from God. And on the other side is obviously demons and the devil who are doing their best to deceive people and to deny that and to deny the power of Jesus or, you know, to twist things. So then, that's where the Holy Spirit is and that's, you know, the Holy Spirit is a comforter. It says that he leads us into the truth. It says that if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. So if you're a Christian and you believe in Jesus, then you have the Holy Spirit. There's no. You can't actually separate Jesus from the Holy Spirit. You can't say, well, I believe in Jesus, but there's no Holy Spirit. You know, that's too much for me.
Speaker 2:And then, obviously, the other aspect of that is that God sent Jesus and to come to the world, as we've been explaining, to die for our sins and so that we could actually believe in him and we could be forgiven and escape God's wrath. And can I just say that, with these things, when you talk about the Old Testament and they say God was a God of wrath, you've got to read it more closely. God was a God of wrath, you've got to read it more closely. It's really like, even with the law of Moses, god did not force them to dot every I you know, because they all would have been dead. I mean, if you look at King David, he managed to do all sorts of things and God still forgave him. He was a man close to God's heart, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's what, like the actual wrath. You've got to read it properly. Like you've got like a whole country full of people fornicating, sacrificing babies, you know, and God's up there and there's this utter filth and then he wants to just blot it out. It's not like you had all these innocent, like squeaky clean priests on the earth, you know, all diligently praying and loving each other, and God actually got angry. You know that's righteousness, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1:But then you know like and I think it's also good to also be able to understand the concept of the Trinity because it holds significance in all of our lives you know like, as for the Trinity itself, you know like they started articulating it in the 2nd and 3rd centuries after Christ, you know like the year 200, 300, around there. So you'll see, there's a formal articulation of what the Trinity is in something called. It was actually articulated in the Council of Nicaea.
Speaker 2:Whatever it is, as long as we can pronounce it.
Speaker 1:No, like it's a little bit easier. Okay, so at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, they had a formal statement where they actually articulated, you know like what, how God's divinity looked, how Jesus' divinity looked, and exactly what happened when Jesus was here on earth, where he died for our sins. I'm not going to read the whole thing, you can definitely go Google it, just type in the Nicene Creed, you will find it. And then what happened in 381 AD? They actually articulated even further and included things about the Holy Spirit. And the thing is like I said, friends, you know like in those early years it was difficult for them to have a holistic scope of everything because of the availability of, you know, paul's letters, the Gospels being written, you know, like the Gospel of John. It took quite a few years for all the Christians to actually have that and remember all of this was happening while people were being persecuted, people were trying to burn these copies, so it was very difficult. But once they had that, they sat together and they actually tried to articulate what the Trinity is Now, the Trinity in its essence, and I'm going to try to explain this in a simple way.
Speaker 1:Then I'm going to first read what they say it is, and then I'm going to try to explain in my own words. The Trinity teaches that God is one in essence, but exists in three persons Father, son and Holy Spirit. Each is fully God, yet they are not free gods, but one. So I heard a guy preach about this the other day and it was actually beautiful. He said that the Trinity is exactly like water. Now, remember, I'm using a person's try, a very limited explanation to try and understand God, but, but, but. But when he was talking about he says, he said it's like water. So he says water exists and free, different forms. Right, it exists as ice, it exists as a liquid and it exists as steam, but yet ice is not steam, steam is not liquid, liquid is not ice. But they are three different types, right, but yet they are all considered what Water? Now, the thing is, this is not an advocation for saying God has three different modes.
Speaker 2:No, no, no.
Speaker 1:I'm not bringing up some 2,000-year-old heresy here.
Speaker 2:Don't you go running to your fridges and crack out a glass?
Speaker 1:But that's the thing, dan. So I'm not trying to bring up the 2,000-year-old heresy, but what I'm trying to say, in our limited understanding, is, if we think about God as water, in this sense that they are all equal in divinity, equal in power, there's not one that's higher than the other. Both are distinct, three different persons. We have distinct ice, we have liquid, that's distinct, we have steam, that's distinct, but they all form, or their base, I wouldn't say their base form, but they can all be considered water, which, in my explanation, is God. Now, okay, so Jesus is God, god is God, god the Father and the Holy Spirit is God. And this is, you'll see, also throughout the Bible. You know it's God the Father, god the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You'll see also throughout the Bible. You know it's God the Father, god the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1:And you know, dan, not too long ago I actually read in a book by CS Lewis he wrote a book called Mere Christianity and the way he tried to talk about the Trinity and it really struck me he said. He said God is like a cube. If you perceive the cube in two dimensions, what will you see? You will just see a square right. You cannot see the whole cube, he says. If you start viewing it in three dimensions, you might see what is the essence of a cube, but you cannot completely see that it is a cube.
Speaker 1:Now he says this is where people are limited. We cannot perceive the Trinity because, because we are human, we cannot think like god. With our limited understanding, we can understand that the father god, the father god, the son god, the holy spirit, are all god and equal in divinity. But other than that, trying to articulate, articulate it even more than that, will be futile, because we cannot perceive in any other dimension like that. You know like we, with our limited understanding, will never be able to understand God and exactly how all of that works.
Speaker 1:And look, how is that relevant to our salvation? Just know that everything that Jesus did for you is very important, my friends, and know that the Holy Spirit is with you. And know that God is the origin, like he started everything. And you know like everything came from God, 100%. You know, but we need to also understand that when we pray, it's not like it's going to be different if you pray to the Holy Spirit or to Jesus or to God. You're praying to God, regardless. And you know, like we mentioned before, you know like if you believe that Jesus is the way of your salvation and he died on the cross for your sins, then you're right, my friend. Can I just?
Speaker 2:give like a bit of you know, just see what you think about this. But when people are struggling to understand this, this is what I suggest that you also remember that you're a human. You know you were created from the dust, yes, and I suggest that you treat God as if he's actually God, yes, and that you be humble and you be thankful to him and you praise him, and I think it will make more sense 100%, and that's also the thing, dan.
Speaker 1:Like I said, we will never be able to fully understand how God operates, or exactly trying to articulate the existence.
Speaker 2:I've been reading the book of Job and if you get to the end of Job, this is a fine one for people who are just thinking, oh well, why does God do this and how does it work really? And God says to Job you know, can you discipline the wicked, can you make the sun rise and set that sort of thing?
Speaker 1:Of course, dan, I have a few beautiful Bible scriptures that affirm the Trinity. This is very clear, black and white. If we read this and try to argue against it, it's futile. Matthew 28, verse 19. Therefore, this is the Great Commission. Okay, this is what Jesus said. Okay, therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Why would Jesus say that? If that's not the truth, then so, 100%, we can take that as the word of god.
Speaker 1:My friends, 2 corinthians 13, verse 14 says may the grace of the lord jesus christ and the love of god and the fellowship of the holy spirit be with you all. Okay, john, one verse one. This one was right under our nose the whole time. We read it a little bit earlier in the podcast, but this is very significant to our walks as christians. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god. Okay, john, 14, verse 16 to 17. And I will ask the father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever.
Speaker 1:The spirit of truth, remember you mentioned that, dan. Yes, spirit of truth is what the holy spirit. So there we know. So we see three distinct entities, my friends, all equal in their divinity. And then john 10, verse 30 I and I, I and the father are one. This is jesus saying it. And then let's go. Old testament, deuteronomy 6, verse 4 here, of israel, the lord, our god, the lord is one they call that the shema. Um, it's very important for us to know that that's there's like a jewish prayer called the shema, where they pray about god is only one, and that's very important for us to always understand, my friends and y'all my friends. That is, heresies and the Trinity in a wrap. Dan, is there anything else you would like to add or talk a little bit about as a bonus?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I would just say that you know, this is, I guess, what we're saying. You're looking at a very sort of direct and historical sort of perspective. But I wonder, michael, what you think about this in the modern world. Like would you say that there's much heresy, you know, in the church today or, on the other hand, just in general, to contradict things.
Speaker 1:Look, dan, we had a little bit of a discussion before the podcast about what consists of, or what a heresy actually consists of. A heresy is anything that goes against the grain, and the grain, in this sense, is the Word of God.
Speaker 2:Do you know any heretics? Have you, you know anyone been burned at the stake?
Speaker 1:I don't believe so.
Speaker 2:I wonder how you would view it in that sense.
Speaker 1:Look, it's all a bit different. Look, I think what happened in the modern day church? People are a little bit more I wouldn't say lax about heresies, but there's a greater scope of understanding in our modern age where, even if someone's view is different than yours, even though they don't always believe exactly on what you believe or your understanding of it, you know like you can have a little bit more grace in that regard. But the thing is, there's also a danger to it, dan. You know like if we don't keep everything strictly biblical, what starts to happen is people infuse it with their own doctrine, infuse it with their own belief systems. Remember Dossiatism.
Speaker 2:Can I just sort of? Put this to you hypothetically and just see if this relates to anyone listening, because Michael's very clearly outlined that Jesus is God. He came in the flesh, he died for our sins.
Speaker 1:He was also a free man.
Speaker 2:You know, that's that, and that God and the Holy Spirit and Jesus, that they're all God, you know. Now let me just sort of put this to you. Okay, just suppose that I'm a Christian, my name's Joe, joe, christian Joe, none of these fancy. You know Gnosticism, and you know my name's not like Joe Sedisi or whatever, and I am going to church the modern church Could be your neighbour and then I think, well, you know, jesus is not hard on sin, because you know Jesus loved us. And so then you know, I guess, that that it's sort of fine. Do you know what I mean? So what do you think now, michael, about this jesus?
Speaker 1:it's very different that because you know the thing is, there's a difference between heresies.
Speaker 2:Tricky, I'm just no, no, 100, I'm trying to get jesus, and I'm just trying to sort of squiggle a little bit and just trying to sort of redefine it to my liking. Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1:What would you think Heresies, strictly in a sense, is how we understand God. Now, this is a little bit different. This is how we understand salvation. So these are the works of God, what Jesus has actually done.
Speaker 2:I'm saying that that's who Jesus is, so you can tell me oh well, jesus is righteous and he's there in heaven and he will judge the living and the dead. But now I'm saying that this is like a friendly Jesus.
Speaker 1:So then that's also the thing If we read the Bible.
Speaker 2:He's not worried about sin, like you have a cigar.
Speaker 1:No, no, no. So like I understand what you're getting at, you know, like, if I read the Bible correctly and I understand it correctly, jesus is the Lamb of God, but he's also going to be the Lion of Judah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you see, I'm trying to shift this now because we know that with our heresies, what people were doing was that they were essentially like they had an untrue version of Jesus which they then followed, and then you get the result which, in most of the cases, means they wouldn't even be saved. You know, if you had a Jesus who doesn't have human blood, how can he shed his blood for you? Or if you have a Jesus who he's only like God, he's not a man, or he's a man and a God. You see the different versions. So what I'm doing is I'm just trying to shift Jesus like one degree away from the truth and just see how would that affect the modern world?
Speaker 1:But that's the thing, then today's church, that is the gospel that's being preached, and unfortunately it happens more and more every single time. The modern day church has become something digestible. What I mean by that is people don't want to offend other people, and I'm not looking for us to run out, yeah, but I understand what you're getting at. You know, like, with this, what's starting to happen? The modern day church, in their attempt not to offend anybody that's not in the church, they want to make the gospel of Christ digestible and we've mentioned this briefly before in another podcast where, if you go to anybody in Hollywood and say, hey, brother, jesus loves you, he is the God of love, he just wants you to be happy, for you to have peace. You don't have to change your ways, you will just experience love if you accept Jesus. That is what the modern day church is trying to do.
Speaker 1:Not all churches I'm not saying every church does this but what's starting to happen is the church is shying away from being 100% truthful. So the thing is to reach more people where I know where that mindset comes from. The intentions might not be bad, but what's the problem? What the problem is, then, the moment we shy away from the truth. What's the difference between that and a heresy?
Speaker 2:I'm trying to relate this to heresy. And what about, like these Westboro Baptists? And you've got a Jesus that wants to murder every sinner? And then that like, and it says in the Bible that here is how that we like. What was it? It says that this is his commandment, that we should love one another. Here is how that we know him. You know, like, you know that you're Jesus' disciples because you love people, and now you've got like a Jesus who says it's fine, go and kill the sinners, I hate sin. And then, like, I'm just as Michael's saying, I'm just trying to relate this to heresy, you know.
Speaker 1:No, 100%, dan. You know, like in a previous podcast we talked a little bit about the Roman road I don't know if you remember that like where we quoted a bunch of Bible scriptures from Romans as well, when we're talking about someone's salvation, you know. But in truth, you know, like we are all sinners, dan. You know, like me, you, everybody else, and through Jesus, we have salvation one day and through his wonderful working blood. But that also doesn't mean we can remain the same and look. Everybody's world or everybody's journey on earth might look a little bit different because, remember, your relationship with Jesus is also a personal and unique thing. What you and Jesus talk about might not be the things that me and Jesus talk about.
Speaker 2:We're not going to be at the same position.
Speaker 1:Exactly, but there are certain things that we need to understand, and I like to call these things biblical truths that should be at everybody's foundation. If you do not have that foundation fully cemented down, dan, the problem is, heresies might start sounding truthful.
Speaker 2:Now you've understood me, because this is the exact sort of thing I wanted to get at, and I was trying to sort of work it around to the listener, because we're in the modern world, but see how this relates to heresy, and that's that verse I was mentioning earlier, that you shouldn't be carried about back and forth by every wind of doctrine and or the servant of God should be fully equipped you know, like an approved workman.
Speaker 2:An approved workman this is sort of like the point of our podcast. It's not a man who you know. Michael comes up to me say now, I'm not going to be tricky this time and he just says you know, jesus was Santa Claus, you know, like it's Christmas. Do what you want. I should actually know the truth. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:And that's also the thing, my friends, listeners. You know like, when we open our ears to the voices out there, you know like to different preachers on YouTube and even to your local pastor and everybody else. You know like to different preachers on YouTube and to even to your local pastor and everybody else. You know like, even though people might sometimes have good intentions in their hearts, if they're not preaching the Bible, you should not be listening to it. Yeah, 100%. You know like we also proved today that all of these heresies can easily be disqualified by just simply reading your Bible, thank you can easily be disqualified by just simply reading your Bible, Thank you. Like I said, today it's very different than 1,600 years ago, where they were still busy compiling the Bible in what we know today as today. Today we have access to everything.
Speaker 1:My friends, if you have any doubt whatsoever, a Google search might put your mind to ease. You know like back then, you had to wait for some missionary from someplace that has the true doctrine come to your little village and come preach the right word of God. You know, but today it's not like that at all. You have access right now. You can go and spend time in the world. Find these answers for yourself and look, I think it was very insightful. Dan, I love learning more about heresies and things like that. Just church history, you know, I heard someone ask a very prominent theologian, you know, like, why should people learn church history? And his response was simply so it does not get repeated and 100%. You know, like my friends, friends, some people might think, yes, I don't want to learn about heresies, it's not important.
Speaker 2:I think it's good learn about heresy so that you make sure that you're not a heretic yeah, it's the same principles um of deceit and it says that the devil deceives the whole world. They're still at work in the world today and thank you, michael, for sort of bearing with me, because really that was exactly what I wanted to happen. We brought it back, we covered it from a different angle, that's perfect.
Speaker 1:So, my friends, that is it from our side today. That was really an insightful discussion. Thanks, dan, it was fantastic. Brother and guys. Goodbye and God bless. Yes, thank you everyone.
Speaker 2:Guys, goodbye and God bless. Yes, thank you everyone and see you next time you.