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The Truth, The Bible and Everything between
Are you seeking truth and practical wisdom from the Bible? Look no further than "The Truth, The Bible and Everything Between" podcast. Join us for in-depth discussions relevant to all Christians and those hungry for the profound insights of the Scriptures. Delve into practical applications of biblical teachings and explore the intersections between faith, life, and everything in between. Tune in to enlightening conversations that bridge the gap between spiritual truths and everyday realities. Embark on a journey of discovery and growth.
The Truth, The Bible and Everything between
Episode 7 - The gift of tongues and what the Bible says about it
Can spiritual gifts truly bridge the gap between the divine and our everyday lives? Join us as we unpack the intricate layers of the gift of tongues, a fascinating yet often contentious topic within Christianity. We'll guide you through the charismatic and Pentecostal perspectives, illustrating the profound moment of the Holy Spirit's outpouring during Pentecost and Paul's insights into glossolalia, a direct and mystic form of communication with God.
Differing opinions on spiritual gifts abound, and we dive into them head-on, exploring why some believers see these gifts as remnants of the early church while others experience them as vibrant aspects of present-day faith. Looking closely at scriptures like 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 and Hebrews 2:3-4, we'll consider the cessationist viewpoint that the gifts have ceased, standing in contrast to those who feel the Holy Spirit is as active today as ever. Personal stories will shed light on the real-world implications of these beliefs, showing the power and pitfalls of spiritual experiences.
Finally, we tackle the complexities of interpreting and practicing the gift of tongues. Through personal anecdotes, you'll hear about the journey from skepticism to genuine spiritual encounters. We stress the importance of discernment and caution, balancing personal faith and the potential for misleading practices. This episode promises to equip you with a richer understanding of spiritual gifts, urging a nuanced, respectful approach to these profound aspects of faith.
If you have any thoughts or suggestions that you'd like to share with us, please don't hesitate to reach out to us at thebibleandtheologypodcast@gmail.com. We are always happy to hear from you!
Welcome everybody to yet another episode of the truth, the Bible and everything in between. My name is Michael. I'm going to be joining you today with my co-host, daniel Peters. There we go, mr Dan. So, my friends, today we have another exciting episode for all of you. But before we get into it, dan, can you quickly help us with Dan's recap?
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, so this recap is normally me considering the mistakes or you know, the angles, how things have gone and the holes in them. How things have gone and the holes in them. And I think last time, when we were talking about spiritual gifts, I think it was really good that we had some personal experiences, but I also, when I talked about it myself, I think the main thing I noticed was that for a lot of the gifts, even though I'm talking about it, I haven't actually seen them functioning. So I thought that that was a bit low and I thought that I should do better. But, yeah, so I think you know, I really want to actually see these things and educate people and have them myself. So that was my main sort of consideration for the recap and actually do it and it's excellent, you know. So we're not just bluffing 100%.
Speaker 1:And, dan, like you mentioned, like we even spoke about last time, you know, to move in the gifts of the Spirit is a wonderful thing and, again, it is something given by God. And you know, like I think both of us agree on the point that we should actually practice these gifts a lot more in the modern day church. You know, like I know, sometimes with denominations and things like that, some viewpoints might be a little bit more conservative and people don't really want to move in the gifts of the spirits because they feel some of it is extra biblical, but in fact it is actually all biblical. It's just people's interpretation of how you actually practice that that differs. And, my friends, I actually think that's a perfect leeway into what we actually want to talk about today. You know, like last time we mentioned, we want to obviously explore the gifts of the spirits even more, but there was one specifically that we would want to focus on today and that is the gift of tongues. So, dan, before we get started, what do you think the gift of tongues actually is?
Speaker 2:So I guess my mind straight away would sort of refer to Paul, who had instructions for speaking in tongues, and also when, I think, when everyone was sort of sitting in the room and the Holy Spirit first came after Jesus had sort of ascended into heaven, and I think that was the very first time that they sort of spoke in what we call the official tongues.
Speaker 2:You know, after Jesus, although I think there were times in the Old Testament. I remember, for example, saul got carried away and, you know, after Jesus, although I think there were times in the Old Testament, I remember, for example, saul got carried away and you know he was prophesying and you know, I guess that's sort of you know, in the same sort of region they didn't even know what he was saying. Yeah, so I guess, speaking in tongues, I would say that you're speaking to God and it's direct and it's from your spirit, and so Paul said that he would pray in his spirit and he would also pray in his mind, but he said that when he was praying in his spirit it's sort of direct to God, you know, but his mind was not actually sort of comprehending it and it was for his own edification. So I think that's the spirit and yeah, and I think also when you're saying it, I think it's not something that people can understand unless it's being interpreted also by the Holy Spirit, who gives the message.
Speaker 1:Of course and look, dan really touched on a few very key points when it comes to speaking in tongues. You know, like this is something I do feel in the modern day church, it really divides a lot of people because there are different viewpoints, and what we're going to attempt today we're going to actually talk about the different viewpoints related to speaking in tongues. Dan definitely explored one of the viewpoints we're going to tackle first, which is the charismatic or the Pentecostal viewpoint towards speaking in tongues. But essentially, speaking in tongues, it's also known as glossolalia. That's the word that they use in the Bible.
Speaker 2:You didn't catch me off guard, michael, I've heard it before.
Speaker 1:Glossolalia, you know. But the thing is basically it refers to speaking the heavenly language, the language between people and God, also known as the angelic language. You know, like I do think it can be quite confusing for some people. Like I said, we want to explore all the different viewpoints, just the charismatic ones, but also you know what what the majority of churches actually, how they feel about it. So let's get into it, mr dan, and the pentecostal charismatic viewpoint. So you mentioned that specific instance where the holy spirit was also poured out on people, where paul also spoke about this a few times, and I'm actually going to read this for us here in acts 2, verse 1 to 4.
Speaker 1:Nick wrote the book. That's a great way to start. So let's quickly see when the day of pentecost came. So this is acts 2, verse 1 to 4. When the day of pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like a blowing of a violent wind, wow, Okay. So this is what Pentecostals also refer to as the pouring out of Holy Spirit, and they believe that when you speak in tongues, it is a sign of you being filled with the Holy Spirit. What do you think of that, dan?
Speaker 2:Yes, well, I think I would agree with that roughly. But I think, for example, like I you know, I haven't thought of it beforehand, but I think there was a church that one of the apostles visited and they had never, never heard about the holy spirit, but they still believed in jesus, yeah, and so then, um, like I'm sorry, I just didn't, you know, actually plan this. I don't know if it was.
Speaker 2:Andrew or Philip or whoever it was, one of the apostles went there and said oh, so you've not actually received the Holy Spirit and been baptized. And so I think you know people. They can tend to sort of categorize things. I've heard people say that when you were baptized, that you're filled with the Holy Spirit. My own experience, which is just general experience for how it works I've met many, many Christians who I'm sure they believe in Jesus. And it says if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And we know that you can only say you know that you, jesus is Lord by the Holy Spirit. It says that in another place and we know that you know you confess with your heart and believe in sorry, confess with your mouth with your heart.
Speaker 2:Yep, you know that Jesus, that God raised him from the dead and that he's the son of God. I would assume that if you've done that and then you have the holy spirit I'm not going to try and make it technical and sort of separate them, you know in in my opinion, I would say that even if christians don't know about speaking in tongues and haven't done it, that doesn't mean that they they can't receive this.
Speaker 1:yeah, a hundred percent, then look, like I said, this is one viewpoint, 100%. You know like where, if someone has been filled with the Holy Spirit, a lot of pains are costles, not all of them, like I said, we cannot really generalize, but they do believe that that is a sign. And there are other signs to accompany it as well. You know, being filled with the Spirit might also mean you moving in the other gifts of the Spirit, like we we discussed in part one. You know I have another scripture here for us 1 Corinthians 14, verse 2. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them. They utter mysteries by the Spirit. So we're still going to talk about like interpretation and things like that later on. Spirit so we're still going to talk about like interpretation, things like that, later on. But undoubtedly, my friends, if you, if you're new to the christian world, you probably have heard someone talk about the gift of tongues and, like I said, it might be a little bit scary the first time you witness this, especially if it's like in a charismatic or pentecostal. You know environment, but rest assured, my friends, you know like environment, but rest assured, my friends, you know like, although there are different interpretations in the Bible of it, it is in the Bible. You know like.
Speaker 1:I know people believe a lot of different things. You know like, even myself, dan. I'll share that a little bit at the end of our podcast. Today. I will share my own experience related to tongues, you know like, just to make it a little bit more personal.
Speaker 1:But the thing is, everybody has a different viewpoint and the thing is it doesn't mean that you're 100% right or 100% wrong. You know like, I don't think any of us will have all of the answers until we get to heaven one day, but I can say that I've seen a lot of positive movements in the spirit, you know, resulting from people speaking in tongues, and I know it might seem like a very scary thing for a lot of people, especially if you're from a very traditional background like myself, um, but it's an amazing thing and I do feel like a lot of people are missing out on this element of the holy spirit by just limiting themselves to only say traditional things and and a direct translation, a direct understanding of what they read in the Bible. And, like I said, we're going to always attempt to give you guys exactly what's being presented in the Bible, and that's why we also want to explore some of the other viewpoints as well. Dan, is there anything you would like to add before we move on to our next?
Speaker 2:viewpoint. Well, just to put some weight on the tradition, what was your church, michael? Was it Dutch? Reformed?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I used to be part of the Dutch Reformed Church and they can outweigh the Greek Orthodox.
Speaker 2:Is that correct?
Speaker 1:No, they're not that bad. But at the same time you know a lot of churches. They have different things going for them. You know, like forutch reform church, I've never met pastors and you know like we called them, something called duomenies in afrikaans. You know where that is exactly what I was hoping for.
Speaker 1:I've never met people that know the bible more because they pretty much all of them can speak hebrew, they can speak greek. It's absolutely incredible they're they're the amount of of Bible knowledge that they have. And, like I said, every, every every denomination in Christianity has its own practices and its own merits as well, and it suits different people. Yes, you know like, I'll forever be grateful for the things that I learned in that church in specific. You know like, but growing up, like I said, I was also exposed to a lot of other things as well.
Speaker 2:Well, that was just to examine the angles of this, because when we're doing this podcast, we are basically wanting to find the truth from the Bible, and this sort of highlights the issue, because you can see how many different versions there are of the truth, because you can see how many different versions there are of the truth, and then how does it function. So we particularly want to look at the Bible and we want to take it from there.
Speaker 1:So this brings us to our second viewpoint, the cessationist viewpoint. So there are lots of Christians, and this is not just a small amount. There's actually a lot of Christians that believe that miraculous gifts of the Spirit, you know, like prophecy, all of those things speaking in tongues, ceased After the establishment of the first church, you know, like in the age of the apostles, and they believe that the Bible is complete now and that all of these gifts have completely ceased. So before I get into Bible, scriptures to you know, substantiate that. Tell me, dan, what is your objective viewpoint? So I'm asking for objective viewpoint.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, my own experience is very broad and I think I mentioned briefly in the last podcast that I've had all sorts of experiences. I mean, I would say that I've met many, many Christians who they'd be afraid to even touch on the subject. They're quite happy to go to church. Many Christians who they'd be afraid to even touch on on the subject, they're quite happy to go to church. They believe in Jesus, which, ironically, is just completely crazy, you know, I mean, you're believing in an invisible God who created the whole universe. They can accept that.
Speaker 2:Go to church, sing songs and if you're lucky, they'll sit up straight and look you in the eye. But they would not want to hear about the spiritual gift or anything like church sing songs and if you're lucky, they'll sit up straight and look you in the eye but, uh, they would not want to hear about the spiritual gift or anything like that. They're quite frightened. On the other end of the spectrum, I've met people who are just loopy, you know, I mean, when they're eating their breakfast cereal, that's like the voice of an angel telling them that you know the, the colored fruit loops, like the purple ones mean do, telling them that you know the colored Fruit Loops, like the purple ones mean do this and the orange ones do that, and I'm being kind to them honestly.
Speaker 1:But look, like I said, in life we're going to meet all different amounts of people.
Speaker 2:I've got nothing against Fruit Loops.
Speaker 1:Slightly unhealthy, too much sugar, but yeah, I've eaten it before so I have a bible scripture I want to share with us, then. 1 corinthians 13, verse 8 to 10 love never fails, but where there are, where there are prophecies, they will seize. Where there are tongues, they will be stilled. Where there is knowledge, it will pass away, for we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. So a lot of cessation has used this specific bible scripture to say like look, you know technically, as the bible has formed its completion, you know like, and the apostolic age has ceased. You know like, you won't see the workings of the holy spirit today. You know like we, we believe still everything that did happen. There's a hundred percent belief in all of those things. It's just people believe that they don't still happen today, because that also opens up a whole another I wouldn't say a can of worms, but a whole other.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of room for interpretation now because at the same time, if you believe that the Bible is still continuing, does that mean people can still write and books and things that still be considered the Bible? Or you know what I mean? Where do you draw the line? So I do understand from their viewpoint. You know like I said, even myself, I don't fully agree with the sensationalist view, but they do have some merit in the way that they think. You know like I understand they want to see the Bible as a complete authority and what's written? That was what was written. No, no single word will be added, you know like, and I understand it from that viewpoint.
Speaker 1:And then there's another Bible scripture here too Hebrews 2, verse 3 to 4. This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders, various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed to them according to his will. So their whole argument is that, dan, at that time God needed to let the people operate in these gifts in order to establish the first church and do miracles so people won't lose their faith. Where they argue now, today, it's not a necessity anymore because people have the written word to live by. Remember, at those times they didn't have a Bible to guide them. You know like, they had scrolls.
Speaker 2:I'm afraid I'm going to have to hit back at this at some point, a hundred percent, dan, there we go man.
Speaker 2:Okay, here's one, for the word of God is alive and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, even to the piercing of joint and marrow, and it is a discerner of the hearts and minds of man. We could go to 1 John, where Jesus said that he was the word, and it says the word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. Now, if we looked at it from the scope of time I've been reading Isaiah in the last few weeks Fantastic stuff. Many prophecies about Jesus, and they're clear prophecies about Jesus and they're clear prophecies about Jesus. There's many references to Jesus throughout the Bible, but I would say that, first of all, the Bible itself is actually spirit and it's the sword of the spirit, so it's not actually something that can become redundant through the passage of time. Um, now, as far as it goes, jesus said these signs shall follow them that believe in my name. They will cast out demons, heal the sick and raise the dead. He didn't say that will stop after the bible is written 100 um%.
Speaker 1:Jesus even said all these things that you have seen. You will be able to do them and more, because I am on my way to my Father. And 100%, dan, I'm 100% in agreement with you. But what I'm trying to say is like their perspective rests on the whole thing as they thought back then, when they didn't have like what we know today as the bible to guide them.
Speaker 1:You know, paul was still writing his letters. You know, like the, the gospels were only being written. You know, like um, they had the scrolls from the old testament 100, you know but it wasn't constructed in the way that we know it today, which is called the canon, exactly exactly, you know, like the biblical canon, they had the torah, you know the first five books of the old testament, and they had a lot of the law to guide them. But, like I said, a lot of it was being written and they believe that's when the gifts operated. But when that came to completion and they compiled the bible, like, say, 400 years after christ as we know it today, and it changed a little bit, they added a, a few books and I know the Roman Catholics have like a few extra books in their Bible, but basically that whole complete picture told them okay, that's the cutoff point, no more workings of the Spirit, you know.
Speaker 2:See, just to put an interesting sort of screw into the argument, paul said that he did not receive his revelation about Jesus from man, but he received it from God. And I think he mentions a period where he was in Arabia for sort of three years and then afterwards, I think, on two occasions he traveled to meet, I think, peter and James, who were the sort of elders, and to confirm what he was doing and as he had had put it, you know, make sure that he wasn't running in vain and that they'd agreed with everything. But he had actually had that revealed to him by the Holy Spirit. And Paul said that he prayed in tongues more than a whole church. I can only assume that that was part of you know what he was doing. So I would think that it's interesting that if you sort of looked at it and you said, well, we only have the Bible, that's complete.
Speaker 2:Paul wrote books of it, but then he had obtained his revelation from the Holy Spirit. Obviously he knew the Old Testament anyway. He was a proper Pharisee or whatever, but yeah.
Speaker 1:Very well educated. Educated, no, 100%. And look that. That's why, like I said, every viewpoint has its merits, but it also has its limitation I think they're the viewpoint of the sensationist is they wanted to preserve what was written in the bible and not let anything that happened in the years in between the apostolic age and today become canon. You know what I mean. So the Book of Mormon, you know, like you know what I mean. So I think, from that point of view, obviously there is a good intention behind that. But you know, like I said, we're here to present what the Bible says, what people believe, and then also to give our own personal viewpoints on it. You know, just so you guys can see how it is in practice. And, like I said, guys, we don't have all the answers. All the answers you're looking for can be found in the Bible, yes, but it's wonderful that we can also at least share a little bit about our own lives.
Speaker 2:And that's what you, the listener, should be doing to study, to show yourself an approved workman able to rightly divide scripture um, which is not us dividing it, that's you dividing it, exactly so take everything that we say with, with, with, with, with an open heart, and then go look for the answers yourself in the bible and don't stone us, unless you're restricting yourself to the old testament here we go then.
Speaker 1:Okay, now the moderate viewpoint. I think this is actually quite nice, so I'm going to literally read this. So the perspective says that some christians adopt a moderate view, recognizing the validity yes, I can't even say validity, yeah, there we go. You swear I'm not an English teacher Validity of speaking in tongues, by stressing that it should be practiced in an orderly manner and with the purpose of building the church rather than mere personal edification. Excellent, I think that's also very valid and it's brilliant in the sense of it allows for the exploration of speaking in tongues, but doing it in an orderly manner.
Speaker 2:So do we know we read the verse for that last podcast, didn't we Do? We need to recap that verse.
Speaker 1:So I actually have a different verse to substantiate that 1 Corinthians 14, verse 26 to 28. What then, shall we say, brothers and sisters, when we we come together? Each of you has a hymn or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. So, dan, you know, like in in, in the few years I've been on earth, I've also been to some gatherings where, where it was a little bit of chaos, yeah, um, you walk in, you don't know when, when it starts, when it's going to end, as people giving each other prophecies and everybody speaking in tongues.
Speaker 1:And the thing is, a very close friend of mine was actually exposed to this in in in the church, and he was still in the beginning of his journey. You know like, he gave his heart to Jesus and he was very open to learning about everything in Christianity and it was very overwhelming at that point of view. And the thing is that it ended up pushing him in a complete different direction, still Christian, but seeking answers in a lot more conservative way. And and the thing is, you know, like at the time I was, I was fearing that my friend will never be able to experience the full openness and power of the Holy Spirit because of the viewpoint he has taken. But the thing is, god has an amazing way of working with everybody.
Speaker 1:And look, we're all on different journeys. You know, like we, we, even myself I've gone from to a journey where initially I was super enthusiastic about tongues and things and then eventually, like I, became a little bit more conservative. Now I'm enthusiastic again and then now I'm taking a little bit more of a conservative view. It fluctuates in everybody's life, based off of experience, you know, um, and then then, um, it's another bible scripture. Yeah, 1 corinthians 14, verse 29, verse 39 to 40. Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy and do not forbid speaking in tongues, but everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Michael. I was just really wanting to hear these two verses in the right context.
Speaker 1:And that's the thing, dan. I do believe that there's a time and place for everything, and if you're a new Christian and you're exploring speaking in tongues and things like that, go to somebody that's been in the game for a long time. I can't really call it a game. No.
Speaker 2:I think we have colloquial license.
Speaker 1:But the thing is, speak to someone that's been, you know, like a Christian for a long time, and not just someone who has a very simplistic I wouldn't say simplistic, but like a very narrow view, but like someone that that's been to a few churches at least to see, you know, like what's out there. Because you know, my friends, the worst thing that we can ever do is think that we are right, 100% right, because that level of arrogance will only get us into trouble, it will create pride in our hearts and we will end up hating our fellow brothers and sisters because we feel they're walking a path that's not biblical. But who are we?
Speaker 2:to say and bearing in mind that there are plenty of people in the world who are deceived, and that there are people, christians, who are deceived yes, and there are people, christians, who are deceived. And just to give you an idea on this point, I saw a cult which is called Fodum, and they were I mean, I can promise you they were doing things that aren't in the Bible. They had members who were married and they told them to leave their spouse if they caught the eye of someone else in the church who they thought was more attractive, and they were claiming that that was prophecies from jesus. And I saw, like you know, they were families split up.
Speaker 2:Now I heard them speaking in tongues it's interesting on this point, michael because they were going to other churches and they were picketing them and they were actually despising other churches, and I mean doing this as an active thing. Now I to me that's the work of Satan, not the Holy Spirit, and it's clearly contrary to the Bible. I mean, you've got sexual immorality I could start right there, but, um, this there. But this is an example of you know the whole sort of adverse. You know what you have of people doing things that just aren't true, you know, it actually functions that way yeah, and look, dan, you know, like, the biggest threat to modern Christianity is other Christians.
Speaker 1:You know, because you know it's a thing, like and look, brothers, biggest threat to modern Christianity is other Christians. You know, because you know it's a thing. And look, brothers and sisters I'm not saying do not point out heresy, like if you see something that's clearly not biblical, 100%, you know, be open about it, talk to people about it. But the thing is, before we start running around and saying this pastor is not from God, this pastor is not from God, this pastor is not from god, actually maybe, maybe, have a listen to what they have to say and then ask god for the wisdom to actually try to point this out.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna make this obvious the bible. Okay, go down yeah, that.
Speaker 1:That should always be your measuring stick. If you want to see if someone is being biblical, just read the Bible and see if it matches up, can I?
Speaker 2:just sort of contrast with my personal experience, because when I first started, when I was a Christian, I went to a Baptist church. They didn't speak a lick of tongues, they had no gifts of the Holy Spirit, but, honestly, I believe that they were full of Jesus, they were lovely people, but that was what they were taught, you know, and you know. Obviously they were living very holy lives and, yeah, I think it was a great church, but in terms of their teaching and their knowledge, I think it sort of bypassed this area, maybe by tradition. I think it sort of bypassed this area. Maybe by tradition, they didn't sound, as you know, as conservative as some of them.
Speaker 1:But that's also the thing, dan. You know like every church is different. You know, like, in the sense of what they believe and their core things that they focus on, and that's why we have so many different denominations.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm sort of building to this, because my own experience I didn't speak in tongues as a result until maybe 12 years later, and that was from listening to a sermon on youtube and, um, you know that the pastor just said, you know, to receive the gift of speaking in tongues, we pray now, and I prayed with him and, um, I thought, okay, well, now I'll test it out and I could speak in tongues. And I was. I was sort of like, oh, you know where did that come from? You know what happened, and I was quite careful in the beginning. I thought, okay, like I could tell, I could tell that I was actually doing it. You know, I wasn't manufacturing it.
Speaker 2:But, um, my own experience was, from then on, because I didn't, I didn't know one pastor from a bar of soap, you know, you could have been dutch, reformed or part deformed. You know I would have said, okay, what's this? Yes, so I, I read like, and many talked to many Christians. Obviously, I've had my own personal background and I watched many, many sermons, but the main thing which I did was to actually read the Bible myself and I think, yeah, so sorry, michael.
Speaker 1:No, that's fantastic, Dan, 100% Like exactly what you said at the end. Read the Bible yourself and look, everybody's going to experience it in a different way.
Speaker 2:I don't dismiss other Christians or dismiss other pastors, but I'm at the stage now where, if I watch a sermon, something might stand out. You know, I might quote a verse, for example. One recently said faith only comes by hearing. You can't get it any other way. And I know. For example, it says that jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith. There's a spiritual gift, which is the gift of faith, which you can covet earnestly. And it says you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the holy spirit. And james also said to cleanse your hands, you sinners. Sinners, purify your hearts. You double-minded. And being double-minded is contrary to having faith. So I straight away quote these verses in my head and I just think, oh, okay. Well, it seems to me there's more to it than that.
Speaker 1:And look, there's always utility in it. You know like exploring different viewpoints. Then you know, like I said, my wife always jokes. You know like she says sometimes I worship like a Baptist guy.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to give a perspective, okay, you?
Speaker 1:know like my wife loves to jump around and praise the Lord, which is wonderful. You know like I'm getting there my foot is starting to tap, my hand is starting to go up, but sometimes I still seem a bit on the conservative side, you know like, when it comes to praise and worship. But it's just an example, friends. And then the fourth viewpoint we want to explore today is the symbolic or metaphorical viewpoint. So there's also a group of christians and scholars that actually believe that speaking in tongues in the bible we're not referring to like a specific language where people actually spoke, but it was more like an act of worship where people would, would do something to praise the lord but it's not a not it's not a specific language or anything special like in that regard.
Speaker 1:It's more just an act of worship. Um, here in acts, 10, verse 46, where we read for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising god. So a lot of these people with this specific point of view, they interpret this as an expression of worship rather than a specific language. And then here in Romans, 8, verse 26, in the same way, the spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the spirit itself intercedes for us through wordless groans. Okay, wow, dan, it's quite difficult to fully grasp. You know like where people would say it's only metaphorical in nature, but I think what they're trying to get at is it's just someone trying to communicate with God and it's not a specific thing that only a select few can receive, even though the Bible mentions it a bunch of times. You know like it's a form of worship. What's your opinion?
Speaker 2:on this, dan. So when we originally read out the list of the gifts of the Spirit, speaking in tongues was specifically one of those. Paul says that there are many different voices in the world and each has their own meaning, and it also talks about you know, if I speak in the tongues of angels and I understand all mysteries, and I have not charity, I'm as a brass symbol. So I would say, going by some of the verses that we've read, that speaking in tongues is actually a tongue. Not only that, if you actually speak in tongues, I can discern different tongues. I've heard, for example, my mother speak in tongues, say the exact same word as another pastor who's, like you know, on a recording. I can, when I hear different people speaking in tongues, I can sort of sense a different what's the word, a different way or different words.
Speaker 2:I've heard people speaking in tongues, like the one I mentioned, that church which were doing some. Basically it was demonic, they were doing evil things and when they spoke in tongues to me it sounded hideous. I didn't like it. Um, so to me I I would say that when you were sort of saying that, well, this is just what's the word like, they're trying to equate it with just praying or just being spiritual. I would say speaking in tongues is actually a language from the holy spirit which he gives you and on the other hand, I wouldn't say you should get silly and carried away and make it out to something that it isn't. So, yeah, I think it's from the holy spirit and he decides, and it's from him and look, then there is like obviously there are also different types of speaking in tongues you know like obviously we we explore a little bit like what the different viewpoints are of speaking in tongues.
Speaker 1:Obviously, we explored a little bit what the different viewpoints are on speaking in tongues, but the thing is there are also different types of speaking in tongues. I know some people that they only believe in a certain type where if it's being spoken in the church, they should be an interpreter. Otherwise it's not from God. There's no other tongues that exist over and above that.
Speaker 2:Which is right. That is how you're supposed to do it in a church with people.
Speaker 1:Yes, in a church context. But then also I know people that believe in tongues as this special language that you speak between you and God, where it's an edification of yourself and a build-up of your relationship of you and God, and 100% I feel both of them have merits. And then there's also some people that believe that, like I said, have a metaphorical point of view, where they believe this is purely just a gesture. Sometimes people can only make sounds because this is them worshipping God, but it's not a language or something exclusive like that. But look, my friends, whatever you believe, I would definitely say you know, look at the different viewpoints, read the Bible and see what's there for you.
Speaker 2:To make a sort of point sorry, mark, no of course not, I just have to do it before, like you know us leaves you can.
Speaker 2:When you praise God, you are supposed to praise him in the spirit. It says God seeks those who would worship him in spirit and in truth. And when you're praying in tongues, you should also be praying in the spirit. So I think there can be the point where you could be praying in tongues but actually praising God. But I think, to me it just seems that people are actually sort of avoiding what's right to make themselves feel comfortable. And on the other hand, I think there is also the stage where people can be deceived. And I think it's a very tricky thing because you need to know the truth and on the other hand, you don't want to be some sort of wretched hypocrite. You know just going out calling out the other Christians, like I mentioned. You know some of them are actually picketing them. You know hurling abuse at each other, but on the other hand, you don't want to be deceived either.
Speaker 1:Of course, but look, dan, I think this is where experience comes in and you know, like I would definitely recommend you know like you ask for God's wisdom when dealing with these things Because, like I said, people have different viewpoints then, and who are we to say that this person is 100 right and this person is 100 wrong? All we can say is, however, what happened to us and how we perceive these things, because obviously, in our own lives, you can also have your own personal testimony, and you know I would.
Speaker 2:I would like to share a little bit about my own journey when you stone me, can you please inscribe the stones individually addressed to Daniel Peters in Hong Kong and hurl them with the utmost accuracy?
Speaker 1:I don't think anybody wants to stone you brother.
Speaker 2:We'll see.
Speaker 1:Michael. But you know what's the thing, friends, I would like to share a little bit about my own personal journey when it's related to tongues. Like I said, I mentioned before that I grew up in a dutch reformed church and the dutch reformed church, you know like there's a lot of scope for understanding god in different ways. Where they teach you the bible. You know like I remember in sunday school where we literally talked about the gifts of the spirit. That was literally a sunday school lesson, but in fact, that's fantastic, but in practice I didn't always see these things happening in church. And then what happened? When I went to high school and this was around the time I actually gave my heart to Jesus my father got saved and radically transformed our family. Now, the thing is, my dad also remember he was part of the Dutch Reformed Church when he became a christian. It was like some form of radical transformation. This guy, like when he gave his heart to jesus wow, we started moving the gifts of the spirit like my dad started to prophesy.
Speaker 1:Everybody was speaking in tongues and you know like as an adolescent boy, you know like growing up, I got exposed to a lot very quickly. You know like everybody I met. You know like, we started this connect group. It was very non-denominational, you know like, not linked to any specific church, and it was just people coming together, prophesying, praying and just moving in the spirit in general. And, dan, like I had a hard time, you know like sometimes understanding everything because, like I, I had a hard time. You know like sometimes understanding everything because, like I said, at the time I had a very limited knowledge of the bible. Obviously I was very enthusiastic and I tried to read up as much as I wanted to like, as much as I could, and I had no bigger desire in my heart than to speak in tongues. I thought like, wow, what's this elusive magic thing? Remember?
Speaker 2:I was 13, nothing like 13, 14.
Speaker 1:You know, like I thought what's this elusive magic thing that people can experience? But they talk directly to god and the thing is it was absolutely amazing. You know, because, like I said, I got, I got to experience that a lot. And you know, like, my father and a few people prayed over me and I received the gift of tongues and I was like wow, this and and, and all I remember is this intense, um, expression of, of love and and just this feeling that I got. But then what happened shortly thereafter? There was lots of things that happened the connect group and you know, like, like with a lot of churches. You know people got hurt and you know like people had fights and the connect group eventually broke up and this is um.
Speaker 1:This is spot on with my own experience, but but that's the thing, then, you like, and that led me to have like a little bit of a warped perception regarding tongues, because I thought, like everybody I was speaking in tongues in the Kunequp at the time like they were acting in a way that I thought, yes man, how can a Christian do this thing and how can a Christian do that thing, and how can Christians be so nasty to each other? And I just started thinking, yes, is this real? You know, speaking in tongues, was that the legitimate movement of the spirit or was it? Is it almost like peer pressure? Were you standing next to people and they sounding out syllables? They sound like a, like a, like a, like a four-year-old kid, like music, you know like, exactly you know like, and, and I felt like, was that a legitimate movement of the spirit or was it all just under the movement of the emotion? And you're experiencing so much and you just do what the guy next year is doing and, look, it took me about like a good 10 years of my life, you know, to get to a place where where I got involved with my, with my current church and and my my previous, like the pastor that was before before at our church, and he really helped me on the journey. You know like, where we, where we pray together, and we discovered this together again.
Speaker 1:And you know like my whole perception on, you know, speaking in tongues started to change again, because but you know what's the thing, dan, my biggest reason why I didn't want to speak in tongues as an adult with a with a much better understanding of speaking in tongues was the level of authenticity. I never wanted to speak in tongues if it was not 100% authentic and 100% from the Holy Spirit, because I feel like what's the point then? What's the point that you sound like a helicopter and it's not really from God, it's not any expression that's edifying your spirit or anything. And I started to realize you know what it is then, and I remember, I distinctly remember there was, there was a few, a few, a few years ago actually, where it happened again for the first time. I was, I was sitting in my living room, I was listening to a Johnny Cash gospel song and I just felt this overwhelming I don't know how to explain it man Like just this overwhelming presence of peace and and and when I, when I, when I spoke, man, like I couldn't make out what I was trying to say and and just it was just that peace that I, that I felt at that very moment, and I know at that moment it was authentic. There was nobody around, it was me, by myself.
Speaker 1:And that's why, today, you know like and dan, even meeting you a few months ago, you know like I know sometimes we, we sit and we try to pray a little bit at times, you know like I want to say, still a little bit out of my comfort zone, but the thing is I'm starting to learn. You know, like that, in a corporate setting, that it's not something to be frowned upon. You know like it is something that can be done right and something to really boost your connection with God. My previous pastor, he literally taught me he says, mike, you know, sometimes, when you have to stand in front of a group of people and talk to them about God, you might be tired, you might have a lot of things on your mind, but the thing that's going to help you immediately establish that connection of speaking in tongues, you know, just before you do it and I tried it a few times and guess what then it worked you know, like, if I'm feeling tired, if I'm feeling a little bit down when I start speaking in tongues, because it's not me, it's my spirit taking over and communicating directly with God, and then something just starts to happen.
Speaker 1:It's like a bubbling of your heart that just flows over into this joy and this connectedness with God. And then from there on forth, like you can, just you know, like actually speak, you know through what God's actually telling you.
Speaker 2:But yeah, Dan, sorry, but I monologued a little bit. No, you're right. Sorry, mate, I thought I had a gap. No, no, 100%. That's what happens when you've played football and you football, and you just think I'll nip in there. Did you want to continue? No, no no, 100%.
Speaker 1:I just wanted to share a little bit and, dan, really it's been an amazing journey and all I want to tell our listeners is no matter what you've been exposed to thus far, do not completely shut that off in your life. I feel like there are so many wonderful Christians sitting in very traditional churches where they're being told that you know like you shouldn't explore that side of the spirit. And yes, they're saying that with caution, because there are some extreme groups that take it, like you mentioned, dan, to another extreme where it's absolute chaos. Then to another extreme where it's absolute chaos, yes, but what I'm trying to tell you, my friends, is not to completely shut that off, because I've experienced so much joy and peace from allowing the Spirit to move in my life once again as a born-again Christian, and it's something I would love for you all to also experience. Well done, michael. Damn Sorry, mate. Over to you brother. No, no, I had to compliment you Well done, michael.
Speaker 2:Damn. Sorry, mate Over to you, brother, no, no.
Speaker 1:I had to compliment you. Thanks, man.
Speaker 2:Because what I wanted to say is that Michael has really qualified this and we aren't advising people to be naive, we're advising you to do the opposite, you know. So we've quoted many scriptures from the Bible and, if I was to sort of recap it, we know that, speaking in tongues, it should be done decently and in order. It should be from the Holy Spirit. You should desire it earnestly. If it's done in church, it should be done in order and with the interpretation in turns. Or there was one exception where Paul said that if you did speak in tongues in front of non-believers, that that would be so God could reveal the secrets of their hearts and they would fall down and worship him, you know, and actually they would understand that they would believe in God and that it was the truth.
Speaker 2:But what Michael was saying about all of this confusion and doubt as well and he's giving a really good example of how that works and it says let the peace of God be the umpire in your heart. And I would say that, aside from the actual Bible, which you need to study for yourself, not just listen to us, that's sort of the point of the podcast. Yes, you need to have the peace of God, and I would just say look, even there you can't be fooled. You know, it says Satan comes as an angel of light, and what I was saying about these sort of cults or people doing wacky things, you know, on the various ends of the spectrum and I would also refer that to the gift of discerning of spirits is where there's an actual gift to discern, you know, what's truly comes from the holy spirit, as opposed to what's, you know, like the spirit of antichrist.
Speaker 2:Um, well, I think what, what you have with with this whole sort of scenario and michael's experienced it, and I've experienced it too you really you need to know the truth. So I think what michael's saying is a very good example of that and how how to do it and how how it relates to you and he's. He's not just being fooled, you know, um. So I think for myself, this is good, michael, I get to go for, like an extra.
Speaker 1:Maybe an extra floor is yours. I'm feeling good. I'm thinking michael had his turn. What about me?
Speaker 2:so, um, I think for myself, I think you know it's a very similar thing like I've seen. I know people that don't believe in speaking in tongues now and I I appreciate that they're actually being conservative. They don't believe in speaking in tongues now and I appreciate that they're actually being conservative. They don't just want to be gullible and what I'm talking about with cults and people being deceived, that's real. And Jesus said that many would come and they would say you know that here is the Christ and there is the Christ, and Jesus said not to believe them. So we're told in the New Testament and at this very moment, like I know, of several cults. I mean, there's one that's called Strong City, I think they're in New Mexico. There's another one in Queensland, australia. If you do research, you'll find these places where people claim to be Jesus, or, like the Fodum, the one I mentioned, where people are having supposed prophecies and speaking in tongues, all things which they claim are from the Holy Spirit of God, and they're doing the most evil things imaginable which are just clearly contrary to the Bible. I mean, I'm talking about incest, people sort of being abused and all this sort of thing, and so you can see how important it actually is and, on the other hand, what michael was saying, where people genuinely have the holy spirit of god. Here's another verse referring to peace. It says he himself is our peace. That's jesus. Jesus is the prince of peace and peace. It's the best thing you can have, and comfort. The Holy Spirit is a spirit of comfort. Now, I would say that, for all of this sort of chaos and nonsense, you know you do have an adversary who is the devil, and he's the father of lies, and I would say, obviously not everything, but for a fair degree of some of the confusion. Here's another verse god is not the author of confusion, but of peace. Yes and um, I had one of my own experiences with these spiritual gifts. Um, I've only, like you know, when I was young I didn't know much, but, um, this is probably one of the worst things I did, which was probably, I guess, three years ago.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to make it further back in the past to make myself not look so silly. I went to a church, which was one of the ones Michael was saying, where they're very enthusiastic, many prophecies, very, what's the word? Like anything, like anything goes. You know, they're just saying everything's from god, of the spirit. Yeah, mate, you stepped on a frog. The holy spirit sent it there. That's his frog, you know.
Speaker 2:And, um, I got excited and I met this girl. And bear in mind like, over the years, I've had many impressions or strong feelings, or, you know, you hear voices or it's your imagination. But I'm not just silly, I don't. I don't give credit to it, you know, I'll quote scriptures. I'll think is this really God? And like, what does this mean? And there's very, very few of those. There's been times where I'm sure that it's the Holy Spirit, you know, and it's actually proven to be true. But this was one time where I got excited. I thought, you know, it's a movement of the Spirit. As you said, I had this vision about this girl who, by the way, is a pop star. I kid you, not the girl's famous. You can. Where we live in Hong Kong, you can see her on TV. She's never going to watch this, so you know it would maybe not.
Speaker 2:Don't say a name yeah, well, anyway, I'm not going to say a name, but I had this vision of her which, ironically, there were probably elements of truth to her, and I got carried away and I told it to her and I said you know what does? What do you think this means, you know, is it about you? And I think she just thought I was an idiot, you know, and I looked very silly and um, so I, I realized that I'd just been carried away by whatever it was. You know, if it was a spirit that wasn't really the holy spirit, or just me being silly, you know, and muddle-headed, getting excited, and um, I think I quoted in response to that god is not the author of confusion, but of peace. Hundreds of times in the months following that, and I, I took a serious, you know, sort of response.
Speaker 1:I, you know, I examined myself and, um, yeah, so, but then 100, you know it's a thing whenever you deal with the spiritual, it's something that transcends our understanding and because of that, sometimes like I know we touched on it last time a little bit you know like, especially when people move in the prophetic, sometimes God will show them a vision or an image or something like that, and they'll try to communicate that to somebody. It's not always our job to try and interpret. You know like if if you told it exactly the way you saw it, then job well done.
Speaker 2:you know like it's it was a good, good experience for me to learn and um, what's the word? You know you can learn to ride a bike by falling off. You know you hit the pavement, you think. Aha, like it was actually good for me to really learn to discipline myself, not to be foolish, you know, not to get carried away. And yeah, I could sort of go into the negative side as far as you like. You know, like I've known Christians who were just committing the most, most terrible sins I mean sins where you should go to jail but they thought that they were acting like with god's approval so.
Speaker 1:But but that's also the thing, dan. Even even with speaking in tongues, you know like we should always ask god for wisdom. You know, like because the last thing you want to do is it's let it just be a peer pressure thing, or because your church is telling you that's the the last thing you want to do is it's let it just be a peer pressure thing, or because your church is telling you that's the only way for you to see if the holy spirit is in your heart, that you need to speak in tongues and you just do it to please them. My friends, it should 100 be only for you to establish your or make your connection with god stronger, and then number two, to edify the church, but it shouldn't be a pressure thing.
Speaker 2:And by their fruits, you shall know.
Speaker 1:So that's another one, and that's also the thing. Let God guide you in this matter. If it's in the Bible, wonderful, ask God for wisdom and then just do what God tells you. Like I said, it's different for everybody, my friends. And look, what we try to do today is give you like a little bit more of a comprehensive viewpoint on the thing of speaking in tongues, and obviously we've had our own experiences. You know, like I think myself and Dan we're in a mix of, like the moderate view and the charismatic view. You know, like the charismatic or Pentecostal view. It's just all that we're trying to say with our podcast today as well is, you know, like, ask God for wisdom and don't completely shut it off if you've never experienced it. You know, like, what does the Bible say? Test everything and keep what is good. Yes, and 100%. My friend, this is one of those things, because it's in the Bible. And look, like I said, different interpretations. There are many different things in the Bible where it can be interpreted a different way.
Speaker 1:Nobody will get a medal around their necks when they go to heaven and say Jesus, telling them you did everything 100% right. If you're going to be that person, I would love to meet you one day in heaven? Yeah, and that's going to be wonderful, I think. Love to meet you one day in heaven? Yeah, and that's going to be wonderful, I would. I think you probably have an amazing story. But as as far as we are on earth, my friends, and we don't have the answers to everything there is to know. Let's try it, my friends. Let's try it. You know, like in and practice it with caution. If you see something looks dodgy, yeah, ask God for a spirit of discernment and if it is dodgy, then run. My friends, don't just stay there because of pressure, don't expose yourself to things that are not from God, but 100% try it out and always match it against the Bible. Dan, that's all from my side today. Is there anything else you would like to add?
Speaker 2:Well, I think we've given a very good view of how to do this and what it involves and, honestly, what I've sort of picked out are just a few choice tidbits, but I could go to dozens and dozens of examples of this that I've just had. Personally, I think I would want to strongly just sort of recap the verses that we've read that refer to this. I think they're just very clear and you know about jesus as well, because that, at the end of the day, that's jesus is the head. You know the whole church, that's his body. There's one spirit, you know, and, um, yeah, so I I think that's really what it's about. It's about directing it to jesus and actually making you stronger. So, um, if we could, just yeah recap those verses.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I'll read all of it, just general, general, strong. So for the Pentecostal charismatic viewpoint, we had Acts 2, verse 1 to 4. Remember when the spirit of God was poured out upon them they actually spoke in tongues. And then in 1 Corinthians 14, verse 2, this is that Bible scripture about when they speak, they utter the mysteries of the spirit. And then the cessationist viewpoint. We had 1 Corinthians 13. It's just that Bible scripture about when they speak, they utter the mysteries of the Spirit. And then the cessationist viewpoint. We had 1 Corinthians 13, verse 10, where I'm just going to read the last verse, verse 10. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. Basically, they're just using that to substantiate their point of view. In hebrews 2, verse 4, the salvation which was first announced by the lord was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testifies to it by signs, wonders, various miracles and by the gifts of the holy spirit distributed according to his will.
Speaker 1:Let me quickly see here moderate viewpoint and 1 corinthians 14, verse 26 to 28. What then shall we say, brothers and sisters, when you come together, each of you has a hymn, a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. They're just speaking to order there, and then we have a few more.
Speaker 2:If you want me to help, I can come in with a few. I just wanted to make this so strong that you all get it and you know what you're doing.
Speaker 1:And it's a nice little tidbit at the end. Like 1 Corinthians 14, verse 39 to 40, therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy and do not forbid speaking in tongues, but everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way, that's really good and then we have two more symbolic and metaphorical viewpoint.
Speaker 1:Remember they use the different ones here in Acts 10, verse 46. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God Remember we spoke a little bit about how people interpret that as worship and in Romans 8, verse 26. In the same way, the spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.
Speaker 2:Ah, I got one. Sorry, there we go. Jude. Everybody read the book of Jude. It's quite short, you can do it. But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God.
Speaker 1:There we go. So, guys, that basically concludes our podcast for today. We just want to thank you all for your love and support over the past few months. Yes, thank you. We've received lots of little hits all over the world. We're still praying and we're asking God's direction with this podcast, and we're praying that it reaches the right people. If you would like us to discuss a specific topic, or if you yourself would like to get involved, we would love to have another guest on the show. Please feel free just to send us an email. You will find all of our contact details and all of the descriptions of our wherever we post this podcast.
Speaker 2:Yes, Any donations which we receive in gold or, you know, stocks or whatever else, will be divided equally. Don't worry, stoning, we'll always same thing with stoning, one for you, one for you.
Speaker 1:But, my friends, I hope you all have a fantastic week. Goodbye and God bless.
Speaker 2:Yes, thank you very much. Uh, we love you. That's what Jesus said. So yeah, © transcript Emily.
Speaker 1:Beynon. Thank you.