The Truth, The Bible and Everything between

Episode 6 - Spiritual Gifts: A deeper look at Spiritual gifts in the modern day church

• Michael Jacobus van den Berg & Daniel Peters • Season 1 • Episode 6

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Have you ever wondered how spiritual gifts differ from natural talents, and how they can transform your life and the church community? Join us for an enlightening episode of "The Truth, the Bible and Everything In Between," where we promise you'll gain a deep understanding of these divine gifts. We kick things off with Daniel recapping our previous discussion about the contradiction of hate preached in some churches, reinforcing the true essence of love and truth through relevant Bible verses.

In this episode, we dive into defining spiritual gifts and their divine origins, using 1 Corinthians 12 as our foundational scripture. From there, we explore how these gifts differ from natural talents and their role in building up the body of Christ. You'll hear compelling testimonies and examples, and special guests, including Carly, share their personal journeys of discovering and applying prophetic gifts. We also emphasize the necessity of discernment to differentiate genuine spiritual gifts from false claims, ensuring alignment with God's will.

To wrap up our discussion, we'll address the practical application of gifts such as service, teaching, and encouragement. Hear powerful stories of how these gifts have impacted individuals and communities, from preventing dangerous misinterpretations in rapidly growing church contexts to the life-changing power of divine guidance. We close the episode with heartfelt gratitude to our listeners, encouraging them to share their experiences and stay connected with us. This episode is a rich, insightful journey into the profound impact of spiritual gifts, promising to equip and inspire you in your spiritual walk.

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If you have any thoughts or suggestions that you'd like to share with us, please don't hesitate to reach out to us at thebibleandtheologypodcast@gmail.com. We are always happy to hear from you!

Michael:

Welcome to the Truth, the Bible and Everything In Between with me, your host, michael and Daniel. Welcome everybody to yet another episode of the Truth, the Bible and Everything In Between. You're here with Michael today and Daniel, daniel and guys, we have a very special episode planned. We're also going to have a few guest speakers that's also going to be joining us. My friends, today we're going to talk about spiritual gifts and how they actually function in the modern day church. So, dan, just before we start getting into it and I think we might actually have to break this podcast, maybe over two episodes, but we'll see what's going to happen there's quite a lot of things that we want to go through. But even before we go into it, dan, what is your understanding of a gift?

Daniel:

Can I just hang on on before we dive into it? I'll answer that, but you know I always like to recap from the previous podcast Dan's recap.

Michael:

We can make it like an official section.

Daniel:

Westboro Baptist and homosexuals. So all I want to do is quote verses from the Bible. And I think for the Baptists I would say Whoso doth not love his brother is a murderer, and we know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. So I would find it a strange thing for a church to preach that you hate your brother on that basis. And for the homosexuals, it is detestable for a man to lie with a man as with a woman. So you know. Again, this is actually to point out. I'm just quoting the truth out of the Bible. That's the point of this. I'm not being nasty to people. I love Baptists, I love homosexuals, and if they've got a problem with me they can fight each other first. There we go. So spiritual gifts to answer your questions. Sorry, but I just have to do this every time, that's good, dan, we can make it a section, we can.

Michael:

We can call it dan's recap. Yeah um always just some comments. Call it the thinking cap the thinking cap.

Daniel:

There we go. It's me thinking about what I said afterwards in a recap oh good, dan.

Michael:

So tell me, dan, what do you think?

Daniel:

or what do you think a gift is like a spiritual gift, yeah, so the Bible is very specific and it tells you about it in 1 Corinthians, chapter 12. And these spiritual gifts, first of all, they are the actual gifts which are roles for people to function in. So there's preaching, teaching apostles, and what's the other one?

Michael:

Evangelists, evangelists. Well, definitely, we're going to read it directly from the Bible yeah, yeah.

Daniel:

Well, that's just I mean first of all, when I talk about it, it just comes straight out like that. But then there are many other roles that Christians are to fulfill, which is the whole body of Jesus, and God has also given to everybody unique personality and things that they're good at, which they should use. Just as in the parable of the servants with the talents, you know, one had only one talent, that was probably me, but you know, another one had ten talents You're supposed to invest them, mate.

Daniel:

But you know, another one had 10 good talent. You're supposed to invest them, mate. So yeah, I'm I'm just trying to compete with these other servants and inspire them, um. So I think, for spiritual gifts, this is, um, it's a very sort of interesting thing and I would sort of say, with our discussion, the first thing to draw us into it is to focus on the word spiritual, spiritual. So I think that's the problem right there, with how people are perceiving it.

Michael:

So, but 100, dan, I I think you did a really good job in articulating what. You know what it is. It's definitely something given to us, you know like and I actually really like the word spiritual gifts, reason being it's like it comes from a source, and this is where it's interesting. You know like, if we read in the Bible, spiritual gifts it's things that we receive, but it's a gift given by God to us, you know like, and I think it's going to be quite fitting. You know like, normally with our other podcasts, we always have lots of Bible scriptures that we reference. I think this time we'll reference a lot of Bible scriptures at the beginning so that we can all have a good understanding of exactly what spiritual gifts are in the biblical sense, and then, from there on forth, we'll have, like, different things that we're going to discuss.

Michael:

So the first one you actually mentioned this and I think it's a fantastic starting point 1 Corinthians 12. So I'm going to read a few verses for us here. 1 Corinthians 12 is. So I'm going to read a few verses for us here. 1 Corinthians 12, verse 1. Now about the gifts of the Spirit. Brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. How amazing is that Paul says that. Okay, underline.

Daniel:

In my version it says ignorance, so you can underline that word.

Michael:

You know that when you were pagan, somehow or other, you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore, I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the spirit of god says jesus be cursed and no one can say jesus is lord except by the holy spirit. There are different kinds of gifts, but the same spirit distributes them. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone is the same God at work.

Michael:

Now, to each one, the manifestation of the spirit is given for the common good. To one, there is given, through the spirit, a message of wisdom. To another a message of knowledge by means of the same spirit to another, faith by the same spirit to another. Gifts of healing by that one spirit to another, miraculous powers to another. Prophecy to another. Distinguishing between spirits to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, to another still, the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of the one and the same spirit and he distributes them to each one just as he determines. Wow, I know it's a bit of a mouthful, but it's.

Daniel:

It's amazing and it's really important we expect you to have memorized that, so yeah, but 100%.

Michael:

Then you know, like when we read what Paul wrote here, you know like it's very significant because even in our own lives we need to understand that these gifts and you know like we have all been dealt different hands, dan you know like some people receive one gift, some people receive three or four, but what we need to understand is it comes from the same source yeah, and we're also going to talk about the purpose of these gifts a little bit later. And we're also going to talk about the purpose of these gifts a little bit later. Um, then I'm going to read one more bible scripture here for us um ephesians 4, verse 11 to 13. So christ himself gave to the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of christ may be built up until we reach unity and faith and acknowledge the son of god became, come mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of christ. Now, dan, you know why I decided to also read this bible scripture.

Michael:

You also mentioned that there are different offices. You know, briefly, that that needs to be filled. You know like I think when people think about spiritual gifts today, everybody has a different opinion in mind when they think about spiritual gifts. Today, everybody has a different opinion in mind when they think about spiritual gifts. It's like, hey, this person, he can speak really well. That is his gift from God. But we want to talk about today and you also said that the focus should be on the spiritual side of it it's not just to talk about gifts, but spiritual gifts.

Daniel:

What I wanted to do when I used the word spiritual is to just point out the problem and how it's actually working for people and they're confused and they're sort of doubtful about this and it's not working.

Michael:

Exactly, and, dan, you know, what I would also think we should do is just talk about the difference between natural talents and spiritual gifts, because, you know, natural talents it's things that some people just naturally have. Generally, you will see, the pastor or someone that's a preacher is generally a good communicator. You would hope so, of course you know, but yet again, you know like God has also used people that are what other people consider a bit boring.

Daniel:

They're just going to say they either communicate well or they're good at putting you to sleep one or the other.

Michael:

But that's the thing, and God can use these natural gifts and talents. Some people, they might have a natural tendency with music. You know, like I, personally, I'm a little bit tone deaf. You know, I've tried, man, I've tried to play guitar.

Daniel:

I'm actually making an album at this point.

Michael:

You see that, here we go. You said you only received one talent. I think there's more than one talent.

Daniel:

I could probably train you, but it might be painful.

Michael:

But look, dan, like I'm looking forward to it. I think it's going to be good. But even then, people that have musical talents, generally they would actually make out to be good worship leaders in church and things like that, you know. So there are different natural talents. So, on that topic, dan, what do you think about natural talents?

Daniel:

Well, I think, first of all, when I mentioned about this being spiritual gifts, I think, in terms of the way people perceive these things and think about them and what's actually happening, that that's one of the difficulties with how people approach the spiritual gifts. Now, by contrast, everyone will be quite happy with natural gifts and, um, natural gifts, it's just common sense. You know, if you are good at playing the guitar, great, you can go on the worship team. You know, if you, if you're good at um, I don know, sort of being cheerful and friendly to people, then you know hospitality, you know you could be greeting people or I don't know, making little name cards and yeah that sort of thing.

Daniel:

So with spiritual gifts, I think that's the actual problem. I think, in my experience of going to church on the natural side, I have actually been on worship team. I've been in kids church and I don't think they were foolish enough to let me do the greetings at the door, so at least they had some perception, be it physical or spiritual. Yeah and um, I think you know, I've experienced various practical or logistical sort of problems, and also on the personal side, obviously, whoever you work with, um, you know, which brings us to the topic of charity, getting on, you know, but um, yeah, so I think I'd sort of look at it in that sort of aspect. As far as the physical gifts go, I think they're pretty straightforward.

Michael:

Physical gifts 100%. Very straightforward Some people are blessed with a lot, some people blessed with not a lot, but you should put to work whatever you've been given.

Daniel:

They're probably just lazy mate. If you're not doing much, you can find something Stacking chairs, there we go, stacking chairs there we go.

Michael:

Stacking chairs, there we go. That's perfect start, and now we're going to get to spiritual gifts. So this is very interesting. Spiritual gifts is not at all the same reason being is we. For us to understand spiritual gifts, we need to look at the purpose of why we actually have spiritual gifts in the modern day church. So, dan, I think you also know a thing or two about this. You know like, I think, one of the biggest reasons and this is also found in the bible I'm gonna read ephesians 4, verse 11 again. Um, I know, I just read it a few minutes ago, but it has so much power in here it's very good for us to actually repeat, so you'll see here exactly.

Michael:

So I'm gonna read here. So christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of christ may be built up until we reach unity in faith. So this is where I'm getting at down. The spiritual gifts are given by god to do what? To equip equip the body of Christ. Now this is where it's important, you know like, because we mentioned in the beginning what some of the spiritual gifts are. But the spiritual gifts are there for the sole reason of equipping the body of Christ to be a more effective tool for God to use. It should always be for the glory of God. You know like we're going to get to controversial things a little bit later when we're talking about this, but I've also seen people maybe use what God has given to them as a spiritual gift to gain fame.

Daniel:

I was just going to say. There's another verse which comes to my mind Let nothing be done out of selfish ambition.

Michael:

I can't remember the rest of it, but you know it's on the topic, obviously but 100, but spiritual gifts, 100 is given by the holy spirit to help kingdom of god grow. And then you know, like, I think, all of us in our hearts, you know like if you've been walking a road of the lord, you have a desire in your heart to see the kingdom of God grow. It's a natural thing, it almost becomes sort of your responsibility as a Christian to help the kingdom of God grow. And remember, god gives spiritual gifts who he deems fit. You know, like, what do you think about desiring spiritual gifts?

Daniel:

Dan. Well, in the part from Corinthians it says that you should covet earnestly the best gifts. Now I'm probably. I'm just going to start by approaching the controversy which I first pointed out the word spiritual yes, because that's a problem. And you have all these people saying, oh well, you know, this didn't happen, it's just for the disciples, you know. Or they say, for example, it's not even a spiritual gift, it's from the devil.

Daniel:

And then you have, on the other end of the spectrum, I've seen people that claim to be prophets. They claim to be, I mean, on the utmost extent, jesus himself, and these are not spiritual gifts from the Holy Spirit. Some of them, I think, are actually demonic or at best, people are full. So this is a big sort of problem. So, as far as what these spiritual gifts are, it's not for doing that. And it says the manifestation of the Spirit is given to all, to profit with all.

Daniel:

So when you have these specific, first, you've got these offices you've described, which are very important. If you don't have evangelists, who's going to go out and preach in Africa? If you don't have teachers, how are the people going to know anything? And so on. And it also mentions other, you know, areas of service as well, such as worship, etc. Now think of a gift like, say, the discerning of spirits. Now, that would apply to some of the examples I gave, where you might have a person who claims to be Jesus, or you might have a person who claims that they're a prophet and they could be running a cult misleading people who actually believe in it. If you had the gift of discerning of spirits, you would know which spirit was from God and which one wasn't.

Michael:

Dan, I think you're really on to a very important point there. So I think in this next section, what we, what we'll focus on, will actually go into a little bit more depth, where we can talk about each of the gifts that are relevant in the bible.

Daniel:

I'm currently no 100. I'm gonna submarine mate. I'm already at the bottom.

Michael:

No, but it's perfect. It's perfect and you're definitely steering us in the right direction. So, to open that section, what I'm going to do is I'm going to read romans 12, verse to 8 for us. For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body and each member belongs to one another. We have different gifts according to the grace given to each of us.

Michael:

If your gift is proph, prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith. If it is serving, then serve. If it is teaching, then teach. If it is to encourage, then give encouragement. If it is giving, then give generously. If it is to lead, do it diligently. If it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully. So then you know like, obviously we, we've been walking a road of the lord, you know like, and we've seen some things, good and bad. You know like. I think it'll be really good, just as we discuss these specific gifts, maybe we can also just tell a little bit of our own experiences excellent, and maybe we can also invite a guest speaker or two maybe share their we share their experiences as well.

Michael:

We do have guest speakers Perfect, so let's quickly see here. So the gift of service you know like this one hit home for me, dan, 100%. So service basically entails helping and assisting others. You know like I had a little bit of a thing about this in my heart not too long ago. You know like sometimes in life you know like the lord might want us to do things and we don't always understand why. You know like and and sometimes that can be that can basically mean you have to stack chairs for a few years for his kingdom been there.

Daniel:

You know, and they've done that. I know I know how to stack a chair, I know how to coil a cable and I know how to show up early in the morning and hide my unhappiness but that's also the thing, dan, you know like, if we serve, you know like, obviously the lord wants us to do it with a cheer.

Michael:

No, no, don't, that's giving that's giving back.

Daniel:

Okay, I need to be, but but look, I'm just joking, look, you know, it's just common sense, all right do it, do it with a cheerful heart, exactly, and look.

Michael:

Serving can look, can look different. You know, like if, if, maybe look at your local church, look at the need that they have. Perhaps they need somebody to help.

Daniel:

You know, come stack chairs I was gonna say, to understand my statement, have sympathy for the humble stair chucker. Oh, chair stacker not stair chucker, stair chucker. We don't chuck stairs. We stack chairs, we stack chairs.

Michael:

Okay, perfect, so that service. I think that's quite straightforward. Now, teaching you know, like Dan, I think teaching is very important. You know, not too long ago in Bible college, you know like, we had a very deep discussion about the gospel in Africa. You know, because if you look at a lot of African nations, africa is absolutely amazing. You know, like I myself have a little bit of a soft spot for Africa, being from South Africa.

Daniel:

I was going to say the listeners may not know that Michael is from South Africa.

Michael:

That's the thing you know like and the thing is man, africa is amazing. You know like the people that live there and and you know what's the amazing thing of Africa is how quickly the gospel spreads. You know you can tell somebody about Jesus the next day they will receive the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues. It's just absolutely amazing how, how you know like how people open their hearts to the lord. You know, in africa and a lot of nations in africa go through different things. You know, but at the same time, in africa, what, what also happened now is in many of those nations, these people are christians but they worship their pastors like gods, they treat them like actual gods, where these prophets and these preachers are treated with such high esteem that they are literally equivalent to how you would worship a deity, which is not okay.

Daniel:

Can I just point out that I've been in the past few months, learned an interesting story from I think it was Kenya, correct me if I'm wrong In an African church where they had exactly what you described a pastor that claimed he was a prophet on the topic, claimed he was getting messages from Jesus, wound up in 400 people committing suicide and being murdered following his instruction because they were basically worshiping him and following him blindly. So just carry on, but I think I've strengthened your point.

Michael:

No, 100 percent, Dan, but this is what I'm getting at Now. There you will see, the gospel is one mile wide but one inch deep, and that's not everywhere 100 percent. You might go to a place somewhere in Africa where people have sound biblical teaching, where everything is wonderful, but sometimes what happens is if people receive the gospel but there's nobody to teach them what the Word says, there's nobody to teach them what God actually wants them to do, things like that happen, dan. People can be deceived.

Daniel:

And this is common sense, because if those people that Michael is talking about were taught, they would know what to do.

Michael:

You couldn't trick them, you know If that's sound biblical teaching and that is why it's important. If God has given you the gift to teach, then, my friend, you better teach. That's one of those things. If God put it on your heart to teach the word of God, then do it. In whatever shape, form, capacity you can try and do it, just do it. Okay, this week. You see Encouragement. I think this one is quite straightforward.

Daniel:

Can I just say that my mom, I think, actually has this gift Amazing. Either that or she's hyperactive. Yeah, she's probably going to be listening to this, Hello mum. So yeah, I think so. Anyway, just relevant, Keep going. Thanks, man.

Michael:

No, 100% encouragement. If you ever met somebody in your life, whenever you speak to them, you just feel lifted up. When you walk away, that's my mom, amen, there we go then it's good to have a person like that in your life. And the thing is, I really believe that god has given this spiritual gift to some people because we need encouragers. Most people just try to kick you down. They don't want to hear you succeed in your life and you need people in your life that's going to kick you down. They don't want to hear you succeed in your life and you need people in your life that's going to encourage you. And if you're one of those people that God has given the gift of encouragement to, then use it.

Daniel:

Don't just encourage one person. Can I just say from personal experience, a person with this gift. It's the sort of thing they can actually get people to win when they think that they can't do it you 100 because sometimes all we need, dan, is just someone in our corner.

Michael:

You know, like it, I always like to think of life in metaphors. I like to think of life like a boxing match, you know like. There are multiple rounds. Maybe round one, you did well. Maybe round two, yes, man, you almost got knocked out, but you're in the corner. You just need somebody in your corner to tell you hey brother, keep fighting the fight. You know like god loves you.

Daniel:

That's all you need. Get you over the line so you can do it exactly that's the thing.

Michael:

Sometimes you just need one person to tell you yes, man, you can do it. God is with you, and that's the thing. If god has given you a spirit of encouragement, 100, use it. Don't just use it once a year or once a decade. Do it as much as possible, because you can bless people with that. Okay, perfect, this week. You see here prophecy, okay. So, my friends, this is quite an interesting thing.

Daniel:

All right now I just say you have reached the depth that my submarine is swimming at. There we go man.

Michael:

But you know prophecy, dan, for many years I believed in a non-profit organization.

Daniel:

Yeah, mate I'm as a submarine captain, I'm getting pings on my sonar but that's the thing that you're like.

Michael:

Oh sorry, man, that was a terrible dad joke. But you know, for many years I believed in a non-profit organization. That's right, because I I was, I was very scared of anybody that says, oh, thus says the Lord, or here comes the word of the Lord. And you know like the Lord has changed my heart towards this. You know like I do feel when it comes to the prophetic. God has definitely blessed people with a prophetic gift. Well, that is true, and the thing is, as long as it coincides with the Bible. Understand, friends, if it can be validated by the Bible, it is a word from God. If you're not able to validate it by the Bible, I wouldn't listen to it. That's right.

Daniel:

And it says this is where we have all the problems. So this is the thick of our discussion, because when it talks about prophets, it says that the spirits of the prophets are subject to them. So, first of all, if you're prophesying, you're not actually out of control. It says that if you're a prophet, your spirit is subject to you. Paul said that, out of all the gifts that people should desire, to prophesy, because it can build up the church and it's supposed to be able to deliver a word of encouragement or possibly tell them about the future and that sort of thing, and you actually know that God is doing something and he's helping you. But it also says to test everything and see if it's from.

Daniel:

God, yeah, and it also says that things should be done in order. So if this is in a meeting, for example, it's not about you hippies just just going crazy and you know dancing about and because I've seen this happen and this is what michael's talking about he calls it non-profit, I call it fruitcake, it's the same thing and then you've got 20 people just like a bunch of silly you know whatever dancing about having visions and saying, oh yes, you know whatever. Dancing about having visions and saying, oh yes, you know, like God is telling me that you need to climb a tree, you need to climb it quickly. There's going to be bananas on the top, we're going to make more fruitcake and you know, I'm not. Look, maybe I'm exaggerating to make the point, but that's not actually what prophecy is supposed to be, and some of the worst atrocities in history have been because of so-called prophets, who most likely were led by demons, not by the Holy Spirit at all.

Michael:

But look, the opposite is also true. Then you know, prophecy can be an amazing tool for Christians to actually use. You know, like I feel like if you look at the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, you know before, you know like we could just use the Holy Spirit to connect with God and hear from God ourselves. You know God spoke to his people via prophets. You know like, in 100 percent, god used those prophets to do what? To direct and guide, and that's exactly what prophecy should be doing. You know like, if it's done in the correct context and also I want to also just it actually falls back to the previous point as well but prophecy can also be used to encourage somebody.

Daniel:

Yes, you know like Can we just underline those points, just so this doesn't get confusing. And I'm not trying to make things worse, but I'm saying, at the very least let's have some coffee with our fruit cake. You know, so what are these points then, for how prophecy should function? Michael has pointed out it should be in line with the Bible number one you can all read it. You know, even if you don't have a teacher handy, avail yourself of it. And then what were those other things, michael, for how prophecy should be done.

Michael:

It should be used to direct and guide, and the thing is I'm not talking about in the wrong direction. This is in a direction that God wants you to move in. If you look at when God used prophets in the Old Testament, you know like the Israelites were trapped in this thing we call the cycle of apostasy, now apostasy. It was quite a complicated thing, but it's like they will be close to God and eventually these people keep complaining.

Daniel:

I know exactly what you're saying. That's the thing.

Michael:

They turn away from God and then they go into bondage, they get sold into slavery. It's terrible. The Israelites are going through a difficult time and then they're looking for a Messiah figure and then God sends them a Savior type figure to help them out of it, like he did with Moses, like he did with Jesus. There are a few other instances where God sends somebody to deliver the Israelites from this situation and instances where God sends somebody to deliver the Israelites from this situation and then they go back to God. And a lot of times God will also use a prophet to, and then, throughout that whole process, god will send a prophet to help guide Israel through that thing.

Daniel:

Many prophets Daniel, Nehemiah, Elijah. There we go. You can just go on and on.

Michael:

There's lots of them, but at the end of the day, all of these prophets were doing what they were helping to guide God's chosen people.

Daniel:

And we're talking about true prophets who are actually doing exactly what God wants. And they're telling you and there's no doubt it's not. You know the funky chicken.

Michael:

Exactly, exactly, and look at the end of the day, dan, you know like it is also another thing that we always need to make sure is, you know, like, what spirit is it being done from? Yes, you know like I I know some people that move in the prophetic, and it's very easy for someone that does move in the prophetic to. They have a good heart. Sometimes, you know like, when people are close to god and they they're able to legitimately hear from god, sometimes their good intentions might be mixed up by the signals they receive from the Lord. Perhaps they receive a Lord from the word they receive a word, even carrying stacks, stacking chairs.

Michael:

Perhaps they receive a word from the Lord that they see someone playing outside with their children, and this person tries to interpret it. They're like oh okay, so look, you should spend more time with your children. You know, like and. And this person tries to interpret it. They're like oh okay, so look, you should spend more time with your children. Well, that was maybe not the image from god at all.

Michael:

Maybe god wanted to say you need to become like a child again because of childlike life and that's what people do, because sometimes people that move in a prophetic, they try to interpret what they are seeing, or the visions or whatever God has granted them, in their own way.

Daniel:

Can I refer us back to where it says test everything, and not only that, it should be done decently and in order. So just you know, to make it very clear, so no one's confused. Then you have first of all the Bible. You've got the truth. Then you have prophets who are in control of their spirits they're not, you know, frothing at the mouth and throwing fruitcake. And then you have sensible people who actually have the Holy Spirit to tell them and they're testing things. And it says to you know anyway.

Michael:

Exactly no, 100%, dan. I completely understand where you're getting at and look, like I said, prophecy is quite a complicated thing and you know, like even in this section, after this, what we're going to do is we're going to look at some real life testimonies of people that I've got some myself and we may have.

Michael:

Yes yeah, 100%, we'll talk about that, dan. So, guys, that was prophecy. Next one wisdom and knowledge. I think this one is quite straightforward. You know, like I've met people with a lot of a lot of knowledge, but they don't have wisdom. Now you might ask the question what? How does that work? It's like, yeah, I've met people that know the bible extremely well, but they don't really know how to put it into application exactly that. So that's why I'm getting it. Knowledge and wisdom, these two actually work, but they don't really know how to put it into application. That's right, exactly that. So that's what I'm getting at Knowledge and wisdom, these two actually work hand in hand.

Michael:

Yeah, maybe God has given someone the gift of knowledge this guy, some people just it's amazing how much stuff they know. And then sometimes God can give someone the gift of wisdom, where I've seen a 20 year old person Under the movement of wisdom. Where I've seen a 20 year old person, under the movement of the spirit, be able to give someone life advice. That's 50 years old and that's legit, good life advice, because that person is hearing from the spirit of God and because of that wisdom, god can use that person. But look, I feel like knowledge and wisdom these two also. They almost work together in a sense, where I feel like if you have a word of knowledge, you can also ask on for word of wisdom.

Daniel:

Well, you can give people advice. I was gonna say I've seen this happen, um, with this word of knowledge, because you know they function differently. Yes, but I've seen in a service where a pastor has said, specifically, you know what the person needs to do, you know what, what will happen in the future, and um, it's actually something, something that happens, it's powerful, you know they can use it. And also, this is um, what's the word? This is not done in a silly way, you know, it's not like spontaneous and cooked up, and um, I think I've I've observed wisdom in its various forms.

Michael:

So, yeah, but that's the thing, like and and I always say you know, like, if you ask how do you get wisdom, wisdom is experience. I I always believe that if people go through things and god can change what experience you've had and change that into wisdom, wisdom that you can use to consult people around you, and in doing that, god makes it a spiritual gift, 100%, and I've heard people go through terrible things but because they had to go through that terrible thing, god has now used that situation, changed it and changed it into wisdom that they can use in, to impart it into people. That that's going through something in a similar, in a similar fashion. Yeah, so 100, it's an amazing gift. We can see next one healing, if you, if you want me to step in.

Daniel:

He's doing all the work. I can give you a definition too, 100% Healing and miracles.

Michael:

So this one, I know it's quite home. You know, like Dan, what do you think of healing and miracles?

Daniel:

Well, this is interesting because in my sort of experience at church, I've very, very rarely seen it, but I've heard it preached and talked about constantly, you know, and people they're all like, oh, you know, we believe in miracles, we believe in faith, and then I haven't actually seen people being healed. And this is interesting because it comes back to what's actually happening and what people believe and how they're doing it, which is sort of the point of us talking about this. Now, just think about this If we're sort of silly and we go willy nilly, I say, ok, I've got a feeling in my finger. I'm a prophet. Now, michael, I've got a vision of a bear. It's eating you. That means you need to go to the zoo. It rhymed Kalamazoo Do you see what I'm saying?

Daniel:

And on compared to how it actually should happen, which is from the holy spirit, you know, and we've sort of explained that with prophecy, healing and miracles. I've, um, I've sort of I've been studying it and um, I've I've seen that it has sort of happened. And the interesting thing, to sort of get a bit deeper into it, when you look at the examples from the churches in the Bible, all of Jesus' disciples and Jesus himself, who said that we should cast out demons, heal the sick and raise the dead and basically preach his name to every corner of the world. Those signs will follow those who believe. That's pretty plain, you know it's, it's not confusing. So I think, um, some people sort of split hairs and they say, well, you know, this person's missing a leg, they need a miracle. That's not a gift of healing. And I think, well, you give them a word of knowledge, you know, sort that out. But yeah, that's my personal sort of view on it.

Michael:

And it's an amazing gift, dan. You know, like I said, I pray that one day I will be part of something like that. I want to be able to witness, not someone of a cold praying being prayed for and then they get healed. I mean like someone of a serious problem you for and then they get healed. I mean like someone of a serious problem you know, like they get completely healed. And I pray and I'm extremely hopeful in my spirit. I know this will come one day and I know the Lord's going to do some amazing things and 100% man, I want to be able to witness that.

Daniel:

This is quite important Because it says in the New Testament this is for people who think that this doesn't happen. It says is any sick among you, Let him pray, and the prayer of faith shall heal the sick. It says that they that believe will lay their hands on the sick and they shall recover. It says there's a gift of healing and miracles and it says that you should not be ignorant.

Michael:

That was the first thing that we underlined amen, amen, okay, friends. So now we're going to go into our next segment, where we're going to get a few people just to share about their personal experiences. So I'm going to get everybody just to introduce themselves and maybe they can just share a thing or two about how spiritual gifts have maybe impacted their lives, or they can just share a testimony about what they've experienced so far. Yes, real life experience, real life experiences hello everyone.

Yuki:

This is yuki. Uh, I would like to talk about like obviously, uh, obviously Dan and Michael already talked about like different spiritual gifts, right, I really want to talk about the gift of prophecy. So, to be honest, previously I really don't believe so much on a prophecy gift or like someone like saying something on their life. I'm not saying that I don't believe, but I just sometimes I doubt is it true or not? Until one day my mentor, he said I have the gift of prophecy and I was wondering what I have, the gift of prophecy, what I have, the gift of prophecy I can profit to someone that like to comfort them, to edificate them, or something like that. And then I still doubt when he say it. But after, like, I asked God, god, if I really have this gift, please show it to me, please let me know I really have this gift. In my life I was a little bit pursuing this gift because I wanted to know more about this too. So I remember one day a few years ago, me and my husband Michael, we were in the Bible college. I remember the first day of the college. We have to pray for each other, we have to pray for our schoolmates. So me and my husband Michael pray for each other. And then I suddenly think of I didn't think of like a prophet to him, but when I pray for him I really, literally in my mind, I saw a picture. I saw a picture that like he was praying the tennis with God, and then, but at that moment, god just touched his legs. You guys know, obviously in the Bible, like that story, jacob like have the wrestling with God, god, and then when god touched his legs, and then his legs really um, four, is it called four or hip bone? Yeah, the hips bone. But and then I, after that, I I told michael of this, I saw this picture, are you willing to go through something with God, or something like that? And then my husband Michael said, yeah, that is so true because he has been going through something with God. So deep inside his heart I was thinking, oh God, it seems like this is my gift you gave me. So I wanted to practice and pursue it more.

Yuki:

So another time I remember we have one of the couple's friend and then we pray for each other after we have Zoom meeting. And then I also saw a picture. I saw the picture that those couple I remember that wife is riding on the bicycle and then the guy, the husband, was walking so slow, it's like under the snow scenario or something like that. And then I asked them I say I saw this picture. Is it something happened in your life, in you guys' life?

Yuki:

And then they said that's so true, because at that situation that woman was walked a little bit far, not far away, but way faster than her husband. Like they are not in the same page, not not really not in the same page, but like a little bit, like they don't have the same ego of mindset, something like that. And then I was so wondering because, oh God, you really give me this gift. So I really wanted to practice it more. So after that I have more confidence in the gift of the prophecy, so I would love to practice it more in the future, even though sometimes I still doubt a little bit. But I do believe that God gave certain people certain gifts, have his own will to build the kingdom of God. So this is one of my testimony of the gift of prophecy.

Carly:

Hi, I'm Carly and I'm Dan's wife and thank you for having me here and I wanted to share some of the personal experience about, probably, the gift of the word of knowledge. And I do have quite a number of people over the years claiming they heard God about me and they say, oh, there's this word of knowledge about you concerning what you should do or what you should not do, and a number of them, I do believe, turned out to not be coming from God. One of the most sort of the ones which I remember the most was about 20 years ago, so that will be around age 23. So I gave away my age when I was thinking of going to Australia, backpacking to Australia, and the church I went to at that time there was a lady. She said oh, last night I have a dream and God told me to warn you not to go to Australia. Something bad will happen to you, you shouldn't go. And I thought about this and I was a bit sort of worried. I don't know like, will anything happen? Or is it really from God or is it not from God? And but that actually made me a bit scared if anything will happen to me if I do go. But then obviously I ended up going. That's how I met Dan and we are now married for 17 years. We've done a lot of things and I'm sure if I haven't gone then I probably won't be sitting here doing this, I wouldn't have met Dan and all that. So that's one of the examples. I always think back about it. Some people, obviously that lady, whether that is what she thinks she may really think it's coming from God. I don't know.

Carly:

But I think it's important for us to also discern when people give you a word of knowledge, and that you should also bring it to God and pray about it and ask whether God, is that really coming from you or not? Because it can. Sometimes it can be quite tricky and it can also cause fear, and I remember Michael previously was saying oh, the word of knowledge should be used to encourage people, to build people up, to help them with their faith, and if it brings fear, that should be something that you should think about it a bit more. Is it supposed to Bring fear or negative sort of? I mean it's different from conviction. Obviously Sometimes it can be conviction from the Holy Spirit, but it is. So you really have to discern and you have to bring it to God and ask that, instead of using your own intellectual sort of knowledge to wonder should I go or should I not go, and all that. And at the end of the day, if it's really coming from God and from the Holy Spirit, then it will come to pass. Otherwise it should not. And so I think it's important to discern that as well.

Carly:

And also, sometimes people maybe it's not intentional, but sometimes people have their own agenda. Maybe it's not intentional, but sometimes people have their own agenda. When they give you, they say, oh, I heard God, he wants me to tell you this. Sometimes people may have some personal agenda which they may not be even aware of, may use God to justify what they say in order to get you to comply to what they say. Or sometimes, and on the other hand, sometimes people take credit, like, if they say something and it really comes to pass, they, instead of giving glory to God, they think, oh, yeah, I did it. I have this powerful gift, and sometimes people kind of almost use it in the wrong way. So that, I think, is some of the personal experience that I have that I want to share.

Daniel:

Can I just point out the client who stole the money. On the topic of hearing from God what happens when you actually do hear from God, I don't know, but you better be quick.

Carly:

Okay, I'll be very quick. Okay, that's probably. I don't. It probably is not a gift, but anyway One of my personal experience. I run a business, a Pilates studio, and I used to. When clients transfer money on FPS or bank transfer, as soon as they send over the screenshot, I just say, oh okay, yeah, money transfer, that's fine, I'll give them the package or whatever, and I never really log into the e-banking to check whether the money gone through.

Daniel:

You have 10 seconds still so.

Carly:

One day so that happens for years One day, when I got the screenshot from this client, there's this voice in my head, really, really strong voice, and said you need to log into your bank account to check. And then I was in a hurry I have no time because I have to teach the next class and I put it away. And then this voice was so strong, it keeps coming to me and I couldn't teach at all. So I need to stop teaching and log into the account and I realized there's no money, the money never gone in. So, um, non-story, short it, it is a. It was a fraud. So the woman actually never transferred any money, she just photoshopped the screenshot and said the money is transferred.

Daniel:

How much money?

Carly:

It was about 10,000 Hong Kong dollars. So yeah, that's one of the personal experiences. Yes, yes, yes.

Daniel:

Okay, so thank you to Yuki and Carly, and I think it's a really useful experience because this is the sort of thing that people may encounter. So, michael and I would like to also share some of our own reflections and experience. Maybe not all of it, but, um, you know just a bit. Um. So, for myself, I've had many and and they are strange, to be honest um, you know, I've I've seen what would you call it. I've I've seen, you know, visions about people. I've had all the spectrum you know that carly mentioned of fruit loops.

Daniel:

As I said in one of our earlier podcasts, I've actually had the first church where I grew up. That was basically a cult. I've been to churches where they just have endless prophecies. Everyone's a prophet, you know. You walk in.

Daniel:

I had a vision of seen real prophecies, that that came true and, um, yeah, I I think, um, you know really something that I think is very sort of relevant to this podcast uh, that people should be very, very intelligent and actually very educated about these things and I think, contrary to the way that you sort of see it, functioning like geese in a farm, people are supposed to be sober and they're supposed to be disciplined and they're supposed to have. You know, be discerning. So yeah, I won't sort of get into sort of too many of the nitty gritty. I guess probably the main one I would say would be when I became a Christian and I felt sort of the voice of Jesus and I felt comforted, you know, and, yeah, also resulted in me quitting a marijuana addiction and take that seriously, you know, because they say it's not addictive. Well, you know, I've got two mates who basically lost their whole lives that way because they're addicted. So, yeah, I'd leave it at that.

Michael:

Sorry, michael, I've been gathering wool no, amazing dan, like, just just share, man. I love it, man. It's wonderful and so wonderful that our wives could actually join us today and just share a little bit about their own lives. For me personally, I want to share just a little bit about my journey towards and I don't want to go into too much detail today because we obviously have an entire another podcast to go and discuss everything further. Next time I'll share a little bit about my experience related to speaking in tongues, which really transformed me profoundly as a christian. But today I actually want to talk about a word of knowledge that I actually received from one of my mentors and pastors, not too long ago actually.

Michael:

You know, friends, a few months ago I was actually struggling with a lot of things in my own heart. You know, like I was going through a thing where, you know, like my wife and I, we, we had, we felt the call of the Lord, you know, to go into ministry and we wanted to take that leap and we both decided to quit our full-time jobs and roll in Bible college and, you know, just work part-time this whole year and it was really quite a difficult leap, because things have been very tough, you know, at times and you know like, sometimes it's very easy to question God and be like God. Is this really what we heard? You know like, is this what you want us to do in this season? And I had a lot of reservations to my own heart about the things going on in my life and I had this feeling that I would like to return back to full-time work. But how is that going to work? You know like, how am I going to work and study at the same time? You know like, how am I going to do what God wants me to do on this earth while I'm working full-time?

Michael:

And I actually went to one of my pastors about this. She sat me down and we, we spoke about this and everything. And she just looked at me and she's like Mike, if you were my husband, I would just tell you to suck it up. And I was like yes, what a word is that? You know like and and and I thought about it like afterwards. And you know like, um, pastors, they were such wonderful mentors to us, you know like, and they taught us so many things and the reason. It only really hit me afterwards why that meant so much to me, because it was exactly what I had to hear in the right moment.

Michael:

And I believe that God used my pastor and gave her a word of knowledge to give to me in that very moment, because in that moment it led me to a point in my life where I realized, and I came to this conclusion because of that moment I was sitting on a minibus on my way to my home and I distinctly remember. At that moment I realized it is not about me, it has never been about me. It's not about what I want, it's not about what I want to do in this life, it's about what God's will is for me. And it took me to hear that word to get to that moment.

Michael:

In that moment of realization, everything changed in my life. I started to realize oh my goodness, maybe in this season it's okay for me to go back to full-time work because this is what God wants me to do. This is not what I want. And sometimes it comes to a point in my life where we need to understand that if we really want to do what God wants, or if we really want to do what God's will is for us in our lives, we would just need to come to a point of submission. We need to submit to his will. And look, god 100% used that word of knowledge to change my life and to this day, I'm so thankful that my pastor was obedient to the Lord in that moment. I know it sounds like a really weird word. Suck it up. I mean, that's wonderful, you know, like it's something I will remember for the rest of my life. But that's one of those things, my friends, and this is just an example of how people operating with spiritual gifts can transform your life.

Daniel:

And, dan, I know we spoke about quite a few today and like I said, yeah, michael, sorry while you were talking, sorry, were we winding up? I've got one more.

Michael:

There we go, that closed open doors man.

Daniel:

Because while Michael was talking and I mentioned, the most prominent thing for me was when I actually believed in jesus and I felt that jesus was actually there and real. Um, but before that, because I'd been at school basically just smoking marijuana for three years, a man came to our school to talk to the kids about drugs, who had been delivered from drugs, and while I was there and I didn't believe in Jesus at all, he had this strange I don't know if it was a prophecy or a word of knowledge and he came up and he hugged me and he said your name means rock and it means warrior. And he said if you ever become a Christian, send me an email. And gave me his email address. That was after a discussion, group discussion and he said do you believe in Jesus? And I said no, mate, I'm not into that, you know. And so, yeah, sorry, but I just remembered that and I'm probably feeling left out. So, yeah, I slipped one in.

Michael:

No but, dan. That's profound, you know like, and that's also just another example of just another example of people being obedient to what God wants them to do and operating in those spiritual gifts. I thought so.

Daniel:

When you were talking about obedience, I actually thought the same thing about that, but what people need to understand is we're not making that up. I wasn't even a Christian when that happened to me, so yeah, and that's the thing, my friends, you know, like today.

Michael:

Maybe God already revealed to you exactly what your gift is, or what your gifts are. You know, if you're blessed with more than one, and not just physical gifts but spiritual gifts, and how you're supposed to use them. And if you don't know yet, pray, ask the Lord to show you exactly. You know, like, what he's gifting, he wants you to operate in, because I promise you, my friends, the moment you start operating in that gift, you will start changing people's lives for his kingdom.

Daniel:

Exactly You're not supposed to back off and avoid it. It's not weird, you know? I mean, if you're a christian, it's already weird enough that you believe in a god that nobody can see. You're going to church, you know like don't have faith in yourself. Yeah, it's no weirdo yeah, exactly, exactly.

Michael:

and then I feel, I feel like this thing has come full circle. In the beginning you mentioned, um, the parable of the talents. You know like, sometimes, like God gives us like one talent, and you know like it comes down to what you do with that, what God has given to you. You know like, if God has given you a spiritual gift, do not squander it, not just for one moment, if you have something that can help somebody else out.

Daniel:

If you have something that can bring someone closer to the lord, then operate in that. Be obedient to god. There are many uh verses that relate to this as well. We're not advocating that you become a master in serving out fruitcake. So it says. God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, and if you have spiritual gifts, they come from the holy spirit, so it's not you know it's not nonsense, know it's not something which is actually wrong. And yeah, we've sort of given examples.

Michael:

Perfect. But, guys, I think that concludes our podcast for today. Like I said, there will be a part two, where we'll specifically talk about the gifts of the Spirit, spiritual gifts and how it actually looks in the modern day church, because I think that's also going to be quite significant to talk about. And also in part two, we will talk about the gift of tongues, because I know it can be quite controversial. But, my friends, thank you so much From my side. It's been wonderful. Dan, do you have any closing words for all of our listeners?

Daniel:

I just wonder what people have actually experienced themselves, or perhaps, on the other hand, are they actually in need of some of these gifts to operate?

Michael:

100%. And guys, like I say, the channel is always open. Please feel free to send us a message or an email. We will post all of our details on all of the social media platforms where the podcast gets posted. 100. Please try to get in contact with us. We would love to hear from you and guys, nobody's nobody's sent me a single piece of gold. Yeah, still waiting but yeah, but guys, honestly it's been such a blessing. God is good. We love you all. Goodbye and god bless yes, thanks everyone.

Daniel:

God bless you.